Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: Greg on 29 March, 2009, 07:36:59 PM



Title: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 29 March, 2009, 07:36:59 PM
Unfortunately due to work commitments and a broken throttle cable my S1 Fulvia 1.3S Sport has been stood for about four months. Once I had a bit of time and got the new cable sorted I tried to start the car only for the engine to turn over and then not fire. The last time the car was used it ran perfectly without any problems clocking up about 250 miles over a weekend so I donít think it can be anything to serious. 

Iíve tried the classic trick of pumping the throttle to get it started, the car is standard so doesnít have an electric fuel pump, but nothing. Iíve checked the plugs and they are in good condition, and they spark so I am reasonably sure it isnít an electrical issue with the coil, points, condenser, etc and Iíve got the engine to fire for a very short period of time with easy start so the only thing I can think of is that the carburettors, standard Solex 35ís, are not getting any fuel. Iím guess because the car has been stood for a while, the fuel could have evaporated or gravity has allowed the fuel to fall from the carbís. As a result I guess I need to prime the carbís, so can anyone please advise me on the best way to do this and get the fuel going to the carbís again?


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: chugga boom on 29 March, 2009, 07:46:32 PM
often mechanical pumps wont draw fuel unless the diaphram is wet with fuel, the best way we have found is to fill the carbs with fuel with a fairy liquid bottle or similar straight onto the fuel pump outlet pipe of the pump, then poor a little back down into the pump, it maybe worth cranking the engine over with the fuel pipe off after to see if the pump has primed, sometimes the main fuel line or filter in the tank can become choked starving the pump of fuel, also when filling the carbs make sure they fill propperly as sometimes the float valves can stick, a gentle tap with a hammer shaft will normally free them off, good luck jp


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Scott on 30 March, 2009, 07:39:51 AM
This certainly sounds like a fuelling issue - and priming the carbs as Chugga Boom has suggested is where I'd start.

My own Fulvia often stands for a while between uses. A modification I made, following an article in Viva Lancia! by the esteemed Andrea Nistri some time ago, was to fit an (inexpensive) electric fuel pump in line with the fuel supply hose. The pump is activated by a button in the car. I simply switch on the ignition and push the button and fuel is sucked up from the tank by the fuel pump and dumped in the carbs. I then start the car - and it always fires first time. With the car running fuelling is undertaken by the normal mechanical fuel pump - the little electric pump is used just for starting. This simple and inexpensive addition saves wear and tear (which used to make me wince as the engine turned over and over on the starter motor waiting for that fuel to apepar) and alleviates that slightly 'fingers crossed' anticipation!  ;)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 30 March, 2009, 08:00:45 AM
Thanks guys, I will have a look and hopefully it will prove simple to solve.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 30 March, 2009, 08:59:46 AM
I've had a solid state electric pump fitted near to the tank at the rear for the same reasons as Scott, and it works perfectly, no more grinding over and over,
One point I hadn't really thought about that a friend pointed out with using this system, is that previously with the big grind the oil pressure built up before the engine fired, now it doesn't :(

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: lancialulu on 30 March, 2009, 02:54:49 PM
I'd recommend the Nistri mod electric priming too, and you have a back up if the mech pump failed while out on the road!

Tim


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: lee69 on 30 March, 2009, 07:05:00 PM
Picked up the 2C today after nearly 9 months at Tanc's. Unfortunately it's suffered from standing for prolonged periods and wouldn't start, even with a new battery fitted. Fuel's getting to the carbs, but there's no spark at the plugs, so we came away today, with the car on my hired trailer and newly purchased ignition bits and bobs - contacts, HT leads etc.  But at least I now have working brakes on 4 not 2 wheels and a functioning handbrake! Unfortunately they had no appropriate plugs or distributor cap in stock, so I'll have to sort these myself. Can anyone advise the best plugs for a 1298 engine and does anyone have a spare distributor cap they'd like to sell? 

On a more depressing note the rotted sill (driver's side) is much worse than I expected, but I have someone lined up to do the work, then it's just the wheelarches, door bottoms, various scabs and dings to sort - if and when I have some spare pennies  :(


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Scarpia on 30 March, 2009, 07:25:37 PM
I think NGK's (BP7ES) are ok. My coupe with the same engine runs fine on this but I'm not sure if the set up on the saloon requires the same plug types ?

Brian makes a good point.All this "bursting instantly into life" is fine if the oil has had chance to circulate.If a car has stood for a while (which many of ours do) I think its not such a bad thing that you need to turn it over a while before it fires up and give the oil chance to reach all the parts it needs to.Otherwise you place considerable forces on metal to metal surfaces give, that the oil has "drained down"


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 30 March, 2009, 08:32:36 PM
Hi Lee,
Pleased to hear you've got your Berlina back, although I would have thought it would have been returned to you as a running vehicle :o

What engine it is that you have in your car now, do you know the engine type or what the engine was out of? I would think it more than likely the the 1298cc engine you have came from a Coupe, bearing in mind the 1300cc engine in series 1 Berlinas was only fitted to the GTE, and there wasn't very many of them about in the first place.
Was the engine out of a series 1 Fulvia or series 2? I suspect series 2.
What plugs are currently fitted? as Peter didn't appear to have a problem with them on the Historique Monte Carlo ;D

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 30 March, 2009, 08:39:28 PM
Right Iíve had a go at the car and have had a little success but still not started. Right first I filled the glass fuel filter container with petrol, and then took off the fuel pipe from the filter to the fuel pump. This went well but after a short while I realised the fuel was coming out as I was putting it in, as far as I could see, from the pump, well at the join just in front, so as a result it drained down the sump and on to the floor, I cleaned this let it stop and evaporate. After for a while I removed the pipe between the carbs and used it to add fuel directly into each carb. After this I removed the carb end of the pipe that goes from the carb down to the pump and tried to fill it. This time it seemed to work and the pump didnít leak fuel anymore. To check this I filled the pipe from the filter end down to the pump and it still didnít leak. Is this wishful thinking but I am guessing that this was dry and so had contracted allowing a leak to form, but now that it has fuel again it has expanded plugging the hole or is this a big issue potentially causing flames and fire etc etc?

After this I tried to start the engine and after a few tries it tried to kick into life, well went ďbah bahĒ as if it was just about to start, so I pumped the throttle a few times and it did the same. Then I added a bit more fuel to the pipes to see if this helped, it didnít seem to. This happened a few time until it wouldnít even try to start and the starter motor just turned over the engine. To check if fuel was getting to the carbs, as I had stripped down the air filter I could look down the carb barrels to see if there was fuel being injected into the carb when the throttle was pressed. On three of the four it was but the one at the back (Number 4 cylinder I Think) refused to inject the fuel, am I correct in thinking this is the ďpump injectorĒ? Well thatís what it look like when I reference my the solex cross-section I have, just in front of the butterfly poking down from he top as you look down the barrel. If so what can I do about it, do I need to take this out and clean/renew it? And if I do that will I alter the setup of the carbs?

Also I suspected that I may have flooded the engine pumping the throttle and dumping fuel in the cylinders so had a look at the plugs. They were wet and had a strong fuel of petrol so I am guessing that this is the case. As a result, for ease, I propose to replace them with new ones. I am currently using NGK BP6ES as I found the car easier to start with these instead of the NGK BP7ES I had used before. I guess just replace them with the same (BP6ES) again? Also the coil I am using uses a ballast resistor and appropriate coil, both are reasonably new, but could this cause me any problems?

Once again many thanks for your help


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Richard Fridd on 30 March, 2009, 08:40:04 PM
hi lee 69, which dist. cap. do you need?got some in the loft/ autojumble +complete dizzys


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: lancialulu on 30 March, 2009, 09:51:21 PM
Re plugs for a non HF 1298cc lancia engine NGK recommend BP7ES, but if fouling is experienced up the heat range to BP6ES.

I have always used 7's after trying the equivent champion N7Y's which always gave starting proplems after a lay off. Changed to the NGK's and always had good starting.

On Gregs problem - it hasnt been proven that the fuel pump is working. With the spark plugs out and the ignition disabled (unplug the coil lead and the distributor points lead to the coil crank the engine to see if fuel is being drawn up by the pump. On S2's there is a fuel return pipe so easy to see. I guess in S1's you will have to rig up a container to pump into, or see if fuel is in the transfer pipe across the pair of carbs. I assume this will be transparent as standard rather than an after market rubber fuel pipe which you cant see what is going on. It could be that No4 Accelerator pump is not working, or it just hasnt any fuel in the float chamber to pump.

Tim


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: lee69 on 30 March, 2009, 09:57:16 PM
Thanks for the advice guys, I'm back over to where the car's now stored on Wednesday (25 miles away, but secure and dry) and will check the dizzy type, plugs and engine number.  The main problem has been the length of time that the car's stood idle over winter - entirely my fault, Tanc's did their best today and to be fair did finish the car some time ago, when it was all working fine.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: nistri on 31 March, 2009, 08:27:48 AM
Well, many thanks to all of you who wrote nice comments about my suggestion for the electric fuel pump to prime the carbs.

I have stripped several Fulvia engines which had not been moved for considerable time and always found an oil film on the bearings. The oil pressure that is built up during cranking is very small, while with a good oil pump driven by the engine firing speed the pressure goes up immediately (within a few seconds). It is also fair to say that a number of oil pumps have now passed the best...Prolonged cranking produces a lot of wear on the flywheel teeth and will never put up significant oil pressure for the camshafts. So using an electric fuel pump to prime the engine is not a bad idea. It is also VERY useful to make a good earth connection of the battery neg lead to the gearbox: usually this is very dirty and has high resistance. Amazing to see how doing this will improve starting (if the gearbox has also a good ground to the engine, of course).

Plugs for 1300 cc engines: I always use NGK BP7ES for all the 302 and 303 engines I have. However, I have not seen any bad behaviour with the more widely available BPR7ES. If I have a bit of extra money, I go for BPR7EIX (expensive). All plugs must be precisely gapped to Fulvia specs (0.55 mm with standard ignition, 0.65 mm with electronic ignition). Points should have 57 +/- 3 degree dwell angle. Ignition timing should be spot on 8 (or 2 teeth before TDC for S1 engines). Many distributors are now worn and have a large axial play which should be eliminated (0.1 mm max) with suitable shims. Otherwise, you get erratic timing typically seen as different static timing values depending on cylinder 1 or 4. With a strobo light one would notice a flickering timing mark at idle. Oiling the distributor through its special hole is a useful servicing operation to prolong its life, although it will not eliminate existing wear.

If the engine won't fire, I would check the condensor, measure the coil resistance with an AV meter, and look carefully at the distributor (points, etc). If the fuel hose between carbs is transparent, it is easy to see if petrol reaches the carbs. Otherwise, disconnect the inlet pipe at the carbs, put it safely in a clean glass jar, (with coil lead disconnected) see if petrol is flowing when cranking. If the carbs throttle pumps are clogged (quite common), the car will run badly but will run (with poor acceleration). Most carbs are (largely) unbalanced and account for unhappy running but not for lack of starting. To the best of my knowledge, carb balancing can only be done with vacuum meters despite a lot of interesting stories on how to do it by ear or other empyrical solutions.

It is not difficult to check if a spark reaches the plugs by removing the plug lead, placing it near one valvecover bolt and looking for a spark when cranking (use thick rubber gloves for this).

If nothing of all this will help, it is necessary to check the engine compression with a tester.

Good luck
Andrea


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 31 March, 2009, 10:38:11 AM
Thanks guys for the reply they are very helpful.

I've decided that due to the leak from the fuel pump, from the gasket i guess, i am going to replace this first, for peace of mind and obvious safety reasons, then have a go at this again. As I said at the start I've checked the spark by taking a plug out and seeing if it sparks which is does, so I'm still thinking that it is likely to be a fuel issue. Unfortunately the pipe between the two carbs is not clear so has obviously been replaced at some point so I guess i will have to put the end in a jar or something to see if the pump is pumping. I guess it is fine to disconnect the pipe that runs from the pump to the carb and use this to see if the fuel comes through?

Am I likely to encounter any problems with changing the pump? I would prefer not to have to remove the carbs, dynamo, etc, but looking at it, access seems to be a bit of an issue as everything is tightly packed down that side of the engine.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: ncundy on 31 March, 2009, 10:59:22 AM
I cannot recall how easy or difficult it is when on the car (along time since I did it on the car and the one I have just finished I did with the engine out), but clean it all very well before starting. I do have a lot of photos of the pump in various stages of disassembly so if you want any of those let me know.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: nistri on 31 March, 2009, 11:29:15 AM
Removing the fuel pump is not difficult, even though on the Fulvia Sport the side opening of the bonnet does not help. It is better to remove the air filter box first. The S1 one pumps were the best and much better than aftermarket replacements. Some of them actually had a small filter for easy cleaning.
Andrea


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 31 March, 2009, 10:30:37 PM
Hi Greg,

If you take the airbox, trumpets and cooling fan and post off, then you can get at the fuel pump, although you can leave the fan & pillar in place, it makes life easier with it out of the way.

It's a bit of a fiddle to get at the back nut on the pump but can be done, when you tighten the nuts up make sure you pull them up equally, or you might distort the pump flange.

I've always had a seep of oil from mine even with a new pump and gasket.

Note on picture No.3 the support for the airbox, most important that this is connected correctly as if not fitted, or loose, it will strain the flexible carb mountings.
It's not necessary to remove it, just slacken off the top bolt at the back of the airbox (fiddle job), if you do decide to remove it, note the rubber bush and sleeve in the bottom mounting.

Finally, if you think the Coupe is short of room to work, have a look at the radiator on my 2c :o
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 01 April, 2009, 08:10:02 AM
Thanks guys for the help, once again it should prove very useful. I will let you know how I get on, hopefully by tomorrow.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: ColinMarr on 01 April, 2009, 08:30:44 PM
Good pictures Brian! Looks like you could walk into it all with spanners in hand and sort it out. But with a sideways opening bonnet on my Sport, I only know the delights of accessing the fuel pump from the underneath, and from the top by feel. And I seem to remember needing a very thin-walled 13mm socket to fit on the main nuts. Such pleasures.

Colin 


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: rdemasi on 01 April, 2009, 08:53:19 PM
In a pinch I've taken off the fuel hose connected to the first carb and hooked it up to a MityVac, the hand vacuum pump, to get fuel from the tank through the fuel pump.  Then let the starter push it through to the carbs.  Eventually though I've connected an electric pump on a momentary switch.

In the photos I've noticed the edge of the fan blades painted in red.  Does it provide good visibility of the fan when spinning?


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 01 April, 2009, 09:28:56 PM
Good evening everyone, guess what it didn't run smoothly, well it kind of did until I hit a problem. Thanks for all the tips for taking the pump off they worked very well. Colin I found it easier to take the bonnet off, so that I could get clear access from the side. Anyway please look at the annotated images below hopeful they will explain where I am better than my words would.

As you can see they new fuel pump is slightly different! So doesn't fit. I really donít want to get a grinder and have to shave of bits of metal until it will slide on, so do you think I will be able to get away with taking the top off and rotating it and then bolting it back together? I'm guessing that as this is the one Omicron have sent me, others that are more like the original are not available, I would ask them but I only got round to trying to put the pump on tonight, I guess I will give them a call o see what they advise on this as well, Does anyone else have an idea on this are there other pumps available that have a inlet and outlet orientated closer to the original?

Also just out of interest I immersed the inlet of the old pump in some petrol and manually pump it, pushing on the lever activated by the pushrod. It seemed to pump, so have I wasted my time with this, or am I right because of the leak, to change the pump?


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 02 April, 2009, 12:31:42 AM
Hi Greg,
You're not alone, we had to relieve the the parts shown to make my pump fit, which was also sourced from Omicron, although you can't see the modification in the photos.
From what I remember it wasn't any great hardship to do, so I wouldn't worry about taking the pump apart and relocating the top, as I would suspect that would be a lot more hassle than the alternative. ::)

As it's all alloy that needs relieving, something like a Dremel would be useful.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 02 April, 2009, 01:08:01 AM
Good pictures Brian! Looks like you could walk into it all with spanners in hand and sort it out. But with a sideways opening bonnet on my Sport, I only know the delights of accessing the fuel pump from the underneath, and from the top by feel. And I seem to remember needing a very thin-walled 13mm socket to fit on the main nuts. Such pleasures.

Colin 


Hi Colin,
I always take lots of photos these days as I quite often forget how things came apart, must be something to do with my age! ::)
I used a waisted socket to get at the rear nut.
I obviously didn't take it in that Chris's Fulvia is a series 1 Sport, in his latest posting he says that he took the side opening bonnet off, I remember you saying a while back something about removing the bonnet?
Would certainly make life easier than working from underneath.

The one job I have to do on the 2c from underneath that I hate with a passion, is removing the bottom rad hose to water pump, a job for which I could do with double jointed elbows >:(

When changing the bottom hose on a Berlina there is so little room to work in even with the grille out, that, pig of a job though it maybe, in the long run it's easier to remove the airbox, fan & Pillar, dynamo & belts, and finally the radiator with hose attached, but free from the water pump end, to undo the clip and change the hose,
I then put the radiator back in with the bottom hose already attached, a replay of the double jointed elbow bit then follows to get it back onto the water pump stub. I've now learnt that if I ever need to take the radiator out, the bottom hose gets replaced irrespective how long it's been fitted.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 02 April, 2009, 01:11:27 AM


In the photos I've noticed the edge of the fan blades painted in red.  Does it provide good visibility of the fan when spinning?

Just enough to stop you sticking you fingers in the fan ;D, I tried red this time but it works better with yellow, and much more effective if you take the paint about half an inch down the blades both sides.

Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: peterbaker on 02 April, 2009, 06:56:41 AM
Changing the subject slightly, I was competing on a two day rally in the HF and wrongly diagnosed a failing fuel pump as closing points. Half way through the night section on a lonely forest road in Norfolk the car finally gave up. No probs as I had a new pump, a helpful navigator and a powerful torch etc. What I did not have was a thin extension bar. I called the RAC explaining what I needed and twenty minutes later help arrived! We went on to finish last.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 02 April, 2009, 10:17:27 AM
Right I've had a go at taking the pump apart then rotating it. And in short, yes fay66 I think you are right, so I have taken some of the material off the edge of the pump. I am still reluctant to remove material from the block, so hopefully this will prove good enough to allow me to get it on.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: nistri on 02 April, 2009, 11:54:29 AM
I had not realized that Omicron supply this kind of fuel pump which is obviously different from the original and even the aftermarket replacements. Aftermarket fuel pumps are still produced in Italy and usually available at reasonable price. The company is BCD Corona and their code # 1009-5. I am told that a good spare stockist should have this, although admittedly I had no reasons to buy one.

In nearly 30 y of Fulvia ownership, I have changed the fuel pump on my Fulvias only once and that was when I just bought my white coupe over 10 y ago. It is rare that these pumps fail in normal use (though it is common to see a slight oil leak from the mounting plate). Andrea


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 02 April, 2009, 01:20:32 PM
Thanks Andrea I will keep this in mind. I've trimmed down the fuel pump so I have just to see if it will now fit, hopefully it will. If not I will see if I can find the one you mention.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Greg on 07 April, 2009, 06:32:14 PM
Right an update. First thanks for all you help it has been invaluable and I've got the car going again so all is good. As I have said I "trimmed" the fuel pump down and got it on to the engine, got everything back on tried to start the engine. Nothing! Not even the starter turning, so charged the battery and then when I got some time, ie today put it back on the car and away we go. Gave the car a 15 or so mile run and it went like a dream. It was great to hear that V4 again after my efforts! Any way thank you all again your help was brilliant.

Thanks,
Greg.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Betaboy2.0 on 07 April, 2009, 07:13:50 PM
I love a happy ending!


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Pinin on 27 June, 2009, 11:45:31 AM
Does anyone have the details of the make/type of secondary pump which could be fitted please? 


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 27 June, 2009, 12:47:06 PM
Does anyone have the details of the make/type of secondary pump which could be fitted please? 

Just had a look on Demon Tweeks at a Facet Pump that I think will do , it needs to be fitted near the tank, they also have a help line on the page so I would suggest a call to them would be worthwhile.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=FSE40105

I haven't had my 2c out yet but she will be out on tuesday getting a wash & brush up in time for "Classics in the Walled Garden"  (Luton Hoo) on wednesday afternoon/evening, then to the AGM a week tomorrow. 
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: ColinMarr on 27 June, 2009, 03:46:37 PM
Another good source for fuel pumps and all the fittings is Think Automotive based in Isleworth, west London. They also do online sales Ė see:

http://www.thinkauto.com/index.html

The Facet pump I fitted (near the engine under the bonnet) is a FSS1, which cost £23.25 (trade price!) in 2005. The mounting kit coast an extra £5.96.

I have also used them as a source of braided brake hoses and fittings.

Colin


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Dilambdaman on 27 June, 2009, 10:03:55 PM

then to the AGM a week tomorrow. 
Brian
8227 8)
[/quote]


Steady Brian, wishing your life away! 2 weeks tomorrow I hope?

Robin.


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 27 June, 2009, 11:46:32 PM

then to the AGM a week tomorrow. 
Brian
8227 8)


Steady Brian, wishing your life away! 2 weeks tomorrow I hope?

Robin.
[/quote]

Hi Robin,
Your Right! It was a senior moment ;D next sunday if I make it, is a run on "Ruby" The Raleigh around the Felixstowe Peninsular with the East Anglian Cyclemotor Club, with the added attraction of a moped jumble thrown in, lots of laughs on only 49cc & a chance to pick up some spares :D It will also be the first time on my own machine, up to now I've been loaned another Raleigh RM9 & a Mobylette, but not the same as yours!

See you the following sunday at the AGM.

Brian 


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: Pinin on 28 June, 2009, 05:10:17 PM
Does anyone have the details of the make/type of secondary pump which could be fitted please? 

Just had a look on Demon Tweeks at a Facet Pump that I think will do , it needs to be fitted near the tank, they also have a help line on the page so I would suggest a call to them would be worthwhile.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=FSE40105

I haven't had my 2c out yet but she will be out on tuesday getting a wash & brush up in time for "Classics in the Walled Garden"  (Luton Hoo) on wednesday afternoon/evening, then to the AGM a week tomorrow. 
Brian
8227 8)

Thanks folks - very useful. 


Title: Re: S1 Starting Problem
Post by: fay66 on 02 July, 2009, 11:49:54 PM
Does anyone have the details of the make/type of secondary pump which could be fitted please? 
Couldn't really see the make of the pump while lying on my back trying to see and take photos, not brilliant but this is my pump and it's location.

Brian
8227 8)