Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: HBG on 02 November, 2023, 07:48:37 PM



Title: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 02 November, 2023, 07:48:37 PM
Hi folks.

I'll be following Norms lead and fitting hazards to my Fulvia 3. I have the same switch and have a led relay on the way.

At the same time I want to add a rear fog light and make provision for front spots in the future.

The fog will have an led lamp with a draw of 0.35 amps, so will I need a relay for this? Could this be direct wired through a switch?

I'll be needing two switches and would like to know what you've used and where you've located them. Ideally the rear fog switch and the front spots will be similar switches matching the style of the car.

Thanks


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: Wangler on 03 November, 2023, 08:05:28 PM
The purpose of a relay is to protect the contacts in a switch to reduce the need for heavy cables when high loads (i.e. amps) are used. A relay is simply a heavy duty switch activated by a light duty switch. The light duty switch works an electromagnet in the relay which is attached to the heavy duty contacts.

LEDs require remarkably small loads in automotive applications, therefore relays are not required for them. Remember that volts x amps = Watts, and itís amps that melt wires and damage contacts!

If your reversing lamp is LED, simply connect it into the existing wiring that feeds your existing reversing lights.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 11 November, 2023, 08:20:18 PM
Any ideas on where to put the three knobs? Hazards, rear fog and future front spots?

Yesterday I fitted led lamps to the front headlights. Pleased so far but need a drive down an unlit lane to confirm. May also need to do some alignment.

I've noticed when driving at night that the ignition light glows a little. Can't see it in daylight, either because it's not on due to low load (headlights off) or the daylight is too bright. I took readings with a multimeter of the voltage across the battery with the engine running and found the voltage at about 15.something at idle and jumping about a bit up to 14.8 when revving. I'd opened up the original Ducellier voltage regulator some months ago and cleaned it up and all looked good but it seemed to be beyond its adjustment limit. As an experiment and in the interests of future reliability of a car that is driven distance I replaced the regulator with a solid-state item. The volts now read 14.8 at idle and 14.5 revving and are rock steady. Time Will tell if this makes any difference though the short night drive I had after seems to have the ignition light off. Not sure what, if anything, this proves.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: Jaydub on 12 November, 2023, 07:55:10 PM
  I would say that the voltage readings you have are slightly high, Normally you want to see 14.2v max, but remember always check charging rate with headlights on to see if the alternator is coping. Most of the time a glimmering  warning light isn`t a problem, just a slightly weak diode in the alternator.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 13 November, 2023, 09:42:20 AM
Thanks John, I'll check with the headlights on, but now that the lamps are led they won't draw much current.

I'm still after inspiration for the location of hazard/rear fog/ future front fog light switches. Where to put them?

Another item I'd like to address is the headlight flasher switch. With side lights on or off the push button on the indicator stalk operates the dipped headlights, which are the outer lights. With the dipped headlights on there is no flash as the lights are already on. Has anyone attempted to make the flasher operate the inner main beam lamps? Seems to me that the wiring has to be altered, if possible, within the switch housing


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: Jaydub on 13 November, 2023, 08:04:16 PM
 Hi Howard, I gave all this information to Norm Thomas regarding flashing inner lamps as well as outer, and he will have the information all written  as he is great at recording everything. All my diagrams are in storage as we moved house in July and my Fulvia is also at a friend`s house. Basically you need to fit a 4 pin relay. Trace the wire  that is switched by the H/Lamp flasher feed to the outer lamps and connect it to pin 85. Connect pin 86 to an earth. Connect pin 30 to a permanent battery (12 volts) feed. Connect pin 87 of the relay to the inner headlamps. That way they will all flash together. As I said, I don`t have my car so I can`t advise on the switch panel location.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 14 November, 2023, 08:58:52 AM
Thanks John. I'll get the wiring diagram out and plan it on paper first. When splicing cables do you use a simple spade connector with insulation or the same in a plastic holder?


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: lancialulu on 14 November, 2023, 09:25:12 AM
I'm still after inspiration for the location of hazard/rear fog/ future front fog light switches. Where to put them?

Another item I'd like to address is the headlight flasher switch. With side lights on or off the push button on the indicator stalk operates the dipped headlights, which are the outer lights. With the dipped headlights on there is no flash as the lights are already on. Has anyone attempted to make the flasher operate the inner main beam lamps? Seems to me that the wiring has to be altered, if possible, within the switch housing

Re switches is your centre console populated with a switch either side of the central air vent. This is where my fog and hazards switches are. Some Fulvias have no switches here just a blanking "plug". Re headlight flashing this is a curiosity of rhd fulvia wiring. I would strongly advise against messing with the switch as it is very delicate. Better to wire in the inners with additional relay to come on as additional main beam so if you want to tell an on coming car they are on mian beam etc just go from dipped to main and back. General day time flashing is done with the little button....


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: Wangler on 14 November, 2023, 07:10:50 PM
Thanks John. I'll get the wiring diagram out and plan it on paper first. When splicing cables do you use a simple spade connector with insulation or the same in a plastic holder?

The best thing is I have discovered for messing about with wiring, and seeing what works, are Wago connectors. They are absolutely brilliant, and if you donít mind how they look they can be pretty permanent too.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 14 November, 2023, 08:27:26 PM
Thanks Tim. I'll do as you and John suggest which is to add a relay for the flashers.

Either side of the cabin vent on my car is a thumb screw of the same type used to hold the fuse box panel up. Behind the screw metal framing to receive the screws, so no chance of putting the switches there.

Think I'll make a steel bracket to attach under the ashtray. It will part fill the cubby space below which is a shame as it's a useful space but options are limited.

Must get on with the hazards - when out in rain and heavy traffic this morning, was wondering how vulnerable I'd be with a breakdown.

I like Wagos, use them at work but probably wouldn't leave them as a permanent feature on the car only because they don't match the original style.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: nthomas1 on 15 November, 2023, 05:08:40 PM


Here's the hazard flasher that I bought, and pictures showing the bracket I made to fit it discretely under the right side of the dash.   I've also attached a diagram showing how I wired it in. 

With regard to switch positions, in my car I have three pull switches on the dash.  The first is to the right of the heater controls and is for the heated rear window, which I don't currently have connected.   The other two are either side of the heater vent underneath the heating controls.  The right one of these originally operated the inner headlamps.  It is now repurposed as a manual override for the radiator fan, as I have rewired the inner headlamps to come on with the outers.   The left one is not currently in use so can be repurposed at some time in the future if required.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 15 November, 2023, 10:21:41 PM
Hi Norm.

I considered that position but thought it would be in the way when reaching for the choke or bonnet release. Do you find it OK?

I've got that switch and was messing about this evening making up a panel for three switches, probably to be mounted under the ashtray. It's a work in progress, maybe a crackle black finish, not completely sure how ill fix it invisibly.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 15 November, 2023, 10:25:37 PM
That diagram is most useful. Thanks.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 November, 2023, 01:23:09 PM
Howard - you asked about my hazard flasher switch interfering with choke and bonnet release.  My choke lever can still be reached easily with the hazard switch in place, though I rarely use the choke.  .My car is RHD so the bonnet release is on the left side so obviously not an issue.    Your solution with the three-switch panel in the console could work well.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 25 November, 2023, 02:48:46 PM
Thanks for the details of your hazard flasher unit, Norm.  It is a very neat installation.

I have mounted additional switches for my rear fog light and auxiliary fuel pump on the floor, next to the handbrake, which are easy to reach while driving.  They are mounted on a flat plate which is screwed to the floor under the carpet (you can do without the plate, but there is a corrugation in the floor panel here which limits the position otherwise). 

The live wires from an additional fuse (installed in the fusebox) have been run under the carpet, but could probably also come in through the handbrake/gearbox tunnel.  Both loads are at the back of the car, fed by wires that run under the carpet and into the boot.  All very accessible and easily removed without visible marks.

Congratulations on your restoration too!

Glyn


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 25 November, 2023, 08:16:21 PM
That's a good location Glyn. Not sure what seats you have but mine are much closer. I was looking at that space as a possible location for a cup holder but its too narrow. Last weekend when out for the day to the Forest of Dean I stopped for coffee and wanted to continue but couldn't put the coffee down.

Any suggestions for cup holders? I do have a travel mug that hooks over the passenger glove box handle but I'd forgotten it that day.

Spent some time this afternoon fitting the hazard lights according to Norms diagram. Didn't quite finish as I had some trouble at the end and was losing the light. Think the  Lucas switch was faulty and have now corrected it. I'll fit it again tomorrow and hope for success.

Fitted my home made and now crackle black panel to the underside of the ash tray.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: frankxhv773t on 26 November, 2023, 11:30:17 AM
If you aren't a smoker couldn't the ashtray be replaced with a switch panel, or is that a silly suggestion?


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 26 November, 2023, 06:02:48 PM
That's a good location Glyn. Not sure what seats you have but mine are much closer. I was looking at that space as a possible location for a cup holder but its too narrow.

I have an HF, so the seats are the black vinyl, high-backed, narrow squab variety.  I forgot that there there is less space between the standard seats.

Glyn


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 26 November, 2023, 06:11:42 PM
Here is the switch in place. Happy with the install except for the trouble with the switch which is poorly made. Instant short circuit from the switch blowing the fuse and killing the flasher unit. Brand new switch repaired and a non led flasher unit installed for the moment.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 01 December, 2023, 09:45:38 PM
So the supplier sent me a replacement Lucas flasher SFB30 kit and flasher relay. The replacement switch is as defective as the first. Since the modified knob ive fitted moves out a little with normal car vibration and disconnects the indicators I've decided that this switch won't do. My options are limited as I don't want to remake the panel so I've found a push button with a small diameter that might do it. It's all taking a lot longer to get a good installation than I'd have anticipated.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 11 December, 2023, 10:25:37 PM
This time it's the instrument back lights. They're too dim.

I've received some led replacements and have changed just one.....and it may possibly be the same or worse.

The lamp that came out was a T10 w3w, 3watt.

I see that w5w are available. Anyone use these? Are they brighter? Do they run hotter and so cause issues?

Thanks, as usual.

Howard


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 13 December, 2023, 08:30:19 AM
Have you cleaned the rheostat?  I needed to use a large amount of switch cleaner on mine and will repeat properly when I next remove the dashboard.  They will never be bright, but they should be clearly visible, even with bulbs not leds.
Glyn


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 13 December, 2023, 05:14:35 PM
Hi Glyn, no I haven't cleaned the rheostat.

Did you just spray it ir is some agitation required? Did it make much difference when clean?


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 14 December, 2023, 10:50:48 AM
Hi Howard,

After getting my car back on the road in 2021 (after 4 years off) the instrument and driving lights were very dim, in fact dangerous on unlit roads.  The fusebox and lighting relays were my first point of call (I'll post some pictures separately).  That gave me bright driving lights but did not fix the instruments.  They were helped by cleaning the rheostat.

All did was to remove the collar fixing the switch (the right hand of the two chromed knobs) to the dashboard and squirt a little switch cleaner, from a pressurised can with a thin tube inserted into the nozzle, into the switch, around the edges of the shaft.  I then rotated it a few times and did it all again.  The improvement was significant and the instruments are now readable at night.  I think the switch is still dirty, so I will remove it and clean it properly (or replace it) when I can.

I would not expect LED lights to be dimmable, so if you swap to LEDs you might be better off taking it out of the circuit entirely.

Glyn



Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 14 December, 2023, 11:04:25 AM
Before tackling the instrument lighting, I cleaned the fusebox properly, for the first time in my ownership.  I have posted this in another Forum (https://lancisti.net/wbb/index.php?thread/12045-relay-id-on-s2-zagato-1972/) but will repost here in case you find it useful.

"I have recently thoroughly cleaned up the fuse box of my 1971 Fulvia 1600 Coupe. It has not been done for at least 38 years and, after 2 resprays in that time, the area contained a lot of old paint dust.

Removing the fuse block and relays was not as difficult as I had expected, but getting everything back in the right place will require a lot of labelling and note-taking. I used a few sheets of wire markers and grouped wires into bunches with cable ties while removing them. That also helps ensure that wires go back in the same order making it easier to avoid snags and crossings.

Once on the bench it is much easier to clean the contacts of the main relay (31, CEAM in your photo) which feeds the main lights. I'll attach some pictures for encouragement.

Glyn"


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: fay66 on 14 December, 2023, 01:09:55 PM
Hi Glyn,
Long time since we last met, and I can't remember if your 1600 is Rhd or Lhd ?
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 14 December, 2023, 02:07:33 PM
Thanks for that Glyn. I'll get some cleaner spray and give it  a go through the dashboard. The one led lamp I have changed did in fact dim.....much to my surprise.

Not long after I got my car, earlier this year, I had the fuses out and cleaned what I could of the contacts though didn't disconnect everything or remove the relays. My headlights and main beams were not great which I put down to halogen lamps when compared to the leds that surround us in almost every other car. I've put leds in everything now except dash lighting. The warning lamps are bright and clear so have no need to change them.

I'm still keen on hearing from anyone who has w5w lamps in the dash.....

The dipped beams are now great.........and adjusted.......must have been flashed by a hundred oncoming cars on my way back from Forest of Dean in the dark!



Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 14 December, 2023, 02:16:09 PM
Hi Glyn,
Long time since we last met, and I can't remember if your 1600 is Rhd or Lhd ?
Brian
8227 8)
Too long, Brian!  Its a RHD car.  I guess the dimmer switch and trip counter positions are determined by the position of the Speedometer.

All the best,

Glyn


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: nthomas1 on 14 December, 2023, 03:53:13 PM

Hey Glyn - daft question maybe, but you do have the cover for relay 31 don't you?  All of your pictures show the relay without the cover in place.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 14 December, 2023, 04:43:05 PM

Hey Glyn - daft question maybe, but you do have the cover for relay 31 don't you?  All of your pictures show the relay without the cover in place.
Not a daft question at all.... no I don't!  It did not have a cover when I bought the car in 1986, so I assumed that they were all like that!  Its probably why mine got so dirty.  The ones I have seen since, with covers, appear to be made by CEAM.  There are no distinguishing marks on mine, but I would guess it is standard and someone lost the cover before I bought the car.

Glyn


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: lancialulu on 14 December, 2023, 05:55:23 PM
Excellent work Glyn! Of course if you want bright headlights just fit interposing relays as per the ebay kit (or something more discrete)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385828310833?hash=item59d528cf31:g:f9cAAOSwJu1kv5In&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8CzPZZgyFfHkSP0vBhoC8FE0NYchdCbxoZ6S7gq6mhjgMt58gAnmzVbn2fKWyjVr2d0FmDMViyosF34W6Gt3MfxpWpgBV6b6f1Fdc40EnTCwOH5L2cpyt3eiUyzb8GOID1xjifjU5kk9lUbvsCmMo1QenzNEk3PJJwZwVPAKLqRlMbpe%2FmneGG0HbcSnnaIRc5N%2BGUR2mjhmAX3yge3zvv8J44ErbZWR9Mph48aWSBlG%2FY5pBFjX1I87t1CdBeUoSDB6GuJ7KdDch%2BfzqoPmS7ekCG1wplsgXTUUjV5JZgZg6bBjrcjM4aCK7o%2FyKkf3AQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5yFrZeNYw


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: GlynW on 14 December, 2023, 07:13:39 PM

Hey Glyn - daft question maybe, but you do have the cover for relay 31 don't you? 
Hi Norm, 
When I searched for CEAM on this Forum one of your old threads came up, so I can see you have already been here with your S3 Fulvia.  On that thread (https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9873.570), there were also questions about the wiring of relays 30 & 32.  When I dismantled my S2, I took notes on all of the wire colours and their destinations for each relay so will attach that now.  The pin numbers correspond to the relay diagram above.  I hope it is not too late to be of interest.
Glyn


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 December, 2023, 10:35:53 AM
That's a very useful chart Glyn!  I made sketches, both physical and logical, of each of my solenoids/relays.  Here they are for the outer light solenoid - the later version so a different design to yours but works the same way.   Between us we must have some useful documentation!

I have a spare CEAM solenoid like yours, but would be an expensive way just to get a cover - unless you wanted a spare mechanism as well.



Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 17 December, 2023, 04:59:32 PM
Finally satisfied with my hazard light instalation. Had them working before with the Lucas switch but the switch kept releasing a touch leaving my indicators not working until it was pushed back in. I sourced a better switch but one that didn't quite work as a direct replacement. The new switch wouldn't separate the hazard connections to the indicators when not in operation which is required. The Lucas switch is entirely mechanical and when turned off keeps the flasher connection and the two wires to the indicators separate. The new switch wouldn't do this so I had to source a double contact relay too wire in. After a couple of issues (new switch being polarity sensitive and my flasher wired up the wrong way round) it's working.

Good job this is a hobby.....it's taken a heap of time. Might get the rear fog light installed ready for next winter!


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 17 December, 2023, 05:00:20 PM
The switch.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: nthomas1 on 17 December, 2023, 10:47:27 PM
That's a neat installation Howard.  Worth all the effort!


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 18 December, 2023, 06:07:59 AM
Thanks Norm. For now I've tucked the wiring up behind the dash panel but will be happier when the relays are mounted some how. I'll see if I can find a suitable place to zip tie them on. The rear fog light which is next on the list will also have a relay to find a home for.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 04 February, 2024, 05:53:34 PM
Educate me on the function of the ignition light.

When setting off in the car daytime the red light is mostly off or so dim that it can't be seen. At night, with the headlights (leds) and radio on the red light glows. After a while it dims, sometimes to the point I can't see it, othertimes it stays visible but dim. Also after a cold start when the car hasn't run for a couple of weeks and needed to crank for a while to start, the red light glows for a while.

What's happening here? Is the alternator not functioning properly? Is this normal or should I have the alternator checked? I changed the regulator for a solid state item a little while back.

The battery seems to keep its charge and the car starts every time.

Thanks.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: lancialulu on 04 February, 2024, 06:45:06 PM

The battery seems to keep its charge and the car starts every time.



Thats the main thing. I assume you have measured the battery volts when running (alternator check), which should be somewhere between 13.5 and 14.5v above 1000rpm.

The alternator light works on being always fed with battery volts (12) and has an earth path through the alternator rectifier circuit. When the alternator is charging the earth path sees nominal 12v or more) so does not have any volts across the bulb - in theoryÖ..


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: nistri on 04 February, 2024, 07:13:20 PM
The red generator light (S2 cars) is fed via a thin wire which decreases the current reaching the bulb even in standard conditions. This led to complaints about the red light on especially visible at night. Lancia actually issued an official note to change the bulb to get rid of this problem, although quite of number of owners chose to replace the wire with one of larger diameter (and therefore of lower resistance), thus solving the problem. In any case it is advisable to check with a multimeter that the alternator is working OK. This issue is not present in S1 Fulvias.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 04 February, 2024, 07:24:39 PM
Tim, when I changed the regulator I measured a stable 14.5v at the battery.  If it is charging I should see no light? And an illuminated light when there is no charge? So when the light is on I should measure voltage again?

Andrea, what bulb was used in the change?

Thanks


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: lancialulu on 04 February, 2024, 10:05:28 PM
As Andrea points out a thin wire from the bulb to alternator will give a small voltage drop across the bulb equivalent to say a 1.5v battery across the bulb dimly lighting it (only really noticeable at night). I wouldnt worry about it. You only need to respond when it is full on. You may have a lazy alternator/ dirty commutator that does not give out charge for a few seconds after starting up.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: nistri on 05 February, 2024, 07:21:46 AM
I regret to say I forgot the watt rating of the suggested bulb; if I come across it, I will send a message.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: lancialulu on 07 February, 2024, 08:42:17 AM
Specified is 3W. To reduce the glow it should be even lower - 2W?

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/903925-2w-12v-165ma-10mmx28mm-ba9s-miniature-lamp?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA8YyuBhBSEiwA5R3-EzVhC7pVxfdqmceqyktz-acDjxbZbFNCRCClmGdlFMPr6A-7x479choCvDsQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: HBG on 19 February, 2024, 06:18:34 PM
Hope I haven't asked this already.

Early in my Fulvia ownership I discovered that the fuel guage, when below half a tank would move around rapidly with the attitude of the car. Braking or acceleration would have it swinging back and forth. Hit the brakes and the needle would drop and the red light come on. Quite irriating as it would be on and off all the time.

Now I have a situation where the light doesn't seem to come on at all. I'm reluctant to run the fuel right down to nothing to find out if the guage has somehow corrected itself. I've had the lamp holder out of the back of the dash and it tests fine.

Can someone explain how the low fuel warning lamp works electrically so I can test it?

Thanks.


Title: Re: Electrical queries
Post by: lancialulu on 19 February, 2024, 10:35:01 PM
Fuel sender unit has 2 outputs (and a common/earth). 1 output is variable and measures height of fuel and second is a low level contact. Easy to test by removing the sender unit.