Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Aprilia, Ardennes and Ardea => Topic started by: simonandjuliet on 26 March, 2022, 08:02:50 AM



Title: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 26 March, 2022, 08:02:50 AM
The engine bay on my S2 Aprilia has been looking tired for a while, it has never been properly done, just a "slip-slap-slop" paint job in 1980 when the engine last came out, so plan is to remove the engine/box, tidy and paint it all (plus some detailing) before putting the stripped and checked engine back

I won't bore you with too much detail, but if anything interesting comes up I'll share it - or if specific photos are wanted, I can post them as well

Known issues: couple of stress cracks to weld, vent drain to clear and repair, oil pressure gauge pipe to repair, repair master cylinder (much easier to access) and re-route brake pipe which has always taken a bizarre short cut !


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: tzf60 on 28 March, 2022, 12:03:10 PM
Hi Simon,
There won't be too much detail - Aprilias are never boring 😄
 
Looking forward to your posts!
 
Best regards,
Tim
 
 


Title: Not seen before ....
Post by: simonandjuliet on 28 March, 2022, 03:32:33 PM
Engine is out and a quick "Karcher" to get rid of some of the oily film

It also revealed a screwed on and stamped, plate that I have never seen before .... I think that it is probably the spare parts ref plate and has the same number as the stamp on the bulkhead. The plate is on the passenger side under the battery box and the stamp is to the right of the box (looking from the engine)

I have never seen one of these plates before - anybody else got/seen one ?

Is it just an S2 thing ? My car is 1947 S2 berlina


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Jay on 28 March, 2022, 04:10:01 PM
Hi Simon, the more detail the better, I find your previous posts invaluable for my current Aprilia project, which I will post some updates soon. Keep up the good work.


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: lancialulu on 28 March, 2022, 05:44:37 PM
Lovely patina!


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 28 March, 2022, 06:42:08 PM
Thanks Tim - at what point does patina become scruffy ??

A question that perplexes many of us I suspect and is tied up with "originality". 

And as Juliet said yesterday  -  "You all get too hung up with originality" .....

Discuss !!


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Hendrik on 28 March, 2022, 07:30:41 PM
Hi to all of you Aprilia drivers,
as my Aprilia job is still at early stage I would like to ask if the engine bay was always painted black? I thought ist was only black painted when the chassis went to the coachbuilders. You See I‘m a originality supporter :).


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: chriswgawne on 29 March, 2022, 09:03:50 AM
Just to be a little facetious if I may Simon, whilst I am not 100% obsessed with originality I am concerned about seeing the non original; philips headed screw on your lubrication plate. I would have thought that would have been replaced with a cross headed screw many moons ago!
And on a more serious note, what is the broken (?) copper pipe - oil pressure gauge?
Chris


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 29 March, 2022, 06:03:42 PM
Chris, not facetious at all .... I have been meaning to do something about it (and others) for years , the problem is that the thread/hole is now too coarse/big for the nice little screws ! So I will have to put a blob of weld, or similar and then re-drill before I can use the little screws again - if I can find them

The cut pipe was an "instant" solution to water pouring into the car many years ago - and I would like to point out before I was custodian !!

It is the drain from the air vent at the top of the bonnet and only on S2 cars (please correct me if it's also on S1 Lusso) I remember that we tried to use various things like coat hangers and old speedo cables , to clear it. So it's another job on the list

Re engine bay colour ..... still investigating


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Andrew Cox on 30 March, 2022, 08:04:02 AM
Hi Simon
              My 1938 Aprilia has a scuttle vent as all cars past body no 6181 ( around chassis no 38-100 odd) probably have.
So I guess around 30% of S1 cars would have these. The drain on my car (from memory) runs on the inside of the firewall
Lots of interesting detail in your S2 engine bay photos. The large ventilation hole in the sides of the engine bay is a major difference from the S1. I’m guessing it’s there to aid cooling?  Does your car have the row of louvres in the floor pan under the drive tunnel? Please keep the photos and info flowing, the detailed photos and comments on your interior restoration were of immense help when I did the same job on my car a couple of years ago.
Cheers
Andrew


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 30 March, 2022, 04:29:13 PM
Hendrick, I have spent a lot of time going over my engine bay today, removing things and cleaning down through layers of colour and I think that there is enough evidence from my car to say that the engine bay was originally body colour .....

So that presents me with a dilemma - body colour or black ?? - I think that I have a preference, so I'll sleep on it !

Engine was washed down and now sits on the bench

Couple of detail pics. First one is the cut out for the foot operated suspension oiler, and a couple of general shots. There are quite a few subtle differences between S1 & S2 and I'll try and highlight them as I go along

Andrew, yes there are the louvres on the tunnel, plus the additional floor strengtheners that I don't think you see on S1 cars


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: lancialulu on 30 March, 2022, 04:44:19 PM
I wish a Fulvia engine was such well behaved!


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Sliding Pillar on 30 March, 2022, 05:00:28 PM
This is my theory on engine bay colour:- Most cars sourced from mainland Europe that I have seen have the engine bay painted in body colour. However original English cars seem to have it painted black. Could this be because cars imported by Alperton were not completely finished when imported, to be painted and upholstered in England as it kept the purchase tax lower. This is also the reason English cars had leather interiors rather than cloth. So the unfinished imported cars had their engine bay painted black, for the body to be finished in whatever colour the purchaser required.
Would this make sense??


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 31 March, 2022, 11:39:17 AM
Makes a lot of sense ..... so next question is what about battery cover and wire covers - would they be body coloured as well ?

A further thought on this is that the bulkhead cover is a separate piece (double glazing if you like outlined in shaky red !), it goes from the mid line of the bulkhead to the top of the engine bay - but only behind the engine. Was this black along with the covers , and the rest of the engine bay body coloured ??

This could give a nice 2-tone engine bay .....

PS has anyone got any photos/experience of removing the bulkhead shroud? I have heard of some scary findings once you take it off along with the water absorbing insulation


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 01 April, 2022, 06:47:46 AM
Bit more dismantling yesterday afternoon.

I have decided to remove the loom so that I can do the job properly (lots of dust and grime under the loom), which means that you have to remove most of the dashboard switches, dash etc. By doing it this way it means that you can keep the vast majority connected and thread it through the bulkhead and wrap it up out of the way

My car has the foot operated headlight switch so a significant extra section to the loom to pull through

I am tempted to rewire the front section because it is brittle and having done the Cabrio I know that it isn't too difficult, but it does risk upsetting things !

Next decision is the bulkhead cover and colour scheme ..... and a bit more dismantling

 



Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 01 April, 2022, 04:16:18 PM
It's snowing here (it's the south of France, for goodness sake .......) so I got some extra time in the garage and carried on dismantling.

Sometimes we make good decisions, sometimes less so, but I made a good one today and removed the bulkhead "shroud". It has helped define the original colour scheme, explained the blocked drain and allowed me to protect the metal before it got any worse ..... there is only surface rust , so I was lucky

The eagle-eyed among you may be wondering if green was the original colour , and I'm now pretty sure that it was originally silver. We know that it has been green since at least 1971 when it was imported, so it's staying green - I love the colour and to my mind suits the shape !

So I'm going to paint the engine bay body-coloured and the "shroud from Turin" satin black along with battery cover and loom covers. All the evidence points to that being the original format

Also spotted the same number stamped on the bulkhead behind the "shroud"

The dash is out , along with the steering column and all the levers etc. I split the steering hub because I didn't want to risk damaging the wheel centre, they are VERY delicate. If I can find the bits I will re-introduce the central horn push - more later

Loom is out and I will re-wire because there are a few dodgy wires and old mods. I have some nice black, woven, modern wire that I bought for the Cabrio so it will look correct

Just need to remove the rest of the braking system and steering box, then we are ready for Dog to do his magic



Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: chriswgawne on 02 April, 2022, 04:08:17 PM
Great photos Simon and good to see there is not really any hidden corrosion apart from that drain pipe. Stupid question but why was the bulkhead + shroud designed in that way? Was it for enhanced rigidity possibly or is the shroud just a cover?
Chris


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 02 April, 2022, 05:14:46 PM
Chris - absolutely no idea ! Noise ? Option to hide stuff ? Option to modify the position of things ? Aesthetics ? .... Who knows !

Still snowing (!) so bit of wiring prep today, I hunted down the correct, late, S2, 12V wiring diagram and notes, then started to convert it into more useable and practical garage sheets

I will add wires for indicators and electric fuel pump and have attached the wire destination codes (as found on the metal tags)

If it all works , I will upload neater versions to the "Technical Data" thread at some point



Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 05 April, 2022, 04:45:20 PM
Ready for Dog now, last bits removed

A bit of a looming problem (and nothing to do with wiring ....sorry!) is the exhaust manifold.

My S2 manifold has started falling to bits - not the first time because it has been patched up several times before. So a few options:

  • Repair mine - difficult because it's cast iron
    Find another - everyone else has same problem ,so rare
    Use a 4:2 x 2 - see photo - but this will need radical exhaust change
    Build 4 pipe manifold - this was mooted many years ago by Norman Wilson of Sheringham fame - also needradical exhaust change , but would be quite cool
Non of the above is easy !

I have loads of very good first series manifolds (maybe point 5 is modify S1 ???) but no S2 - can anyone help ?

Happy to swap/buy !

Thanks

ps picture of louvres on the S2,


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: DavidLaver on 08 April, 2022, 09:11:21 PM

Am sure they'll be a specialist welder who'd repair the original manifold...  A copy of the automobile might yield an advert. 


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Andrew Cox on 09 April, 2022, 07:33:50 AM
I suspect the rationale for the double firewall, the extra vents in the engine compartment and the transmission tunnel were all efforts to dissipate heat and keep it out of the passenger compartment. Probably not an issue in the U.K but could have been a concern in Italy. I’m fairly sure someone in Italy was offering “bunches of bananas” for both series engines as being for sale a few years ago.


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Sebastien on 09 April, 2022, 09:15:40 AM
Bananas, you said bananas?


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 09 April, 2022, 09:23:11 AM
Now, that IS nice !  Thank you and where did it come from/who made it ?

I have a Nardi manifold as well - maybe that's a project for the future !


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Richard Fridd on 09 April, 2022, 10:24:41 AM
Yes , very nice!


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Sebastien on 09 April, 2022, 11:37:42 AM
As far as I know, it was made by, or for Officina Gamberini, near Bologna:

https://autofficinagamberini.com/auto-depoca/


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: DavidLaver on 09 April, 2022, 11:18:44 PM


https://www.castironwelding.co.uk/blog/richard-hammonds-classic-car-restoration-smallest-cog/

https://www.castironweldingrepairs.co.uk/classic-vintage-veteran-motor-vehicle-casting-repairs.php

https://www.prewarcar.com/pwc-workshop-cast-iron-welding


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 10 April, 2022, 04:32:40 PM
Thanks for the links - If I can't find someone here in France , I can always send it back. I want to get the exhaust manifold ceramique coated as well


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: lancialulu on 10 April, 2022, 05:12:45 PM
Thanks for the links - If I can't find someone here in France , I can always send it back. I want to get the exhaust manifold ceramique coated as well
Local guy to me can de rust and ceramic coat at much less cost than Zircotec.. I also have a good welder of cast iron. Depends how thin it is.


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: Jay on 12 April, 2022, 04:54:58 PM
Sorry to but into this great thread. Sebastien image of the engine bay shows a thermostat housing similar to some of the Series 2 cars I have seen, with what I am assuming is a water temperature sender and what looks like a 15mm copper pipe take off. Can you tell me what this is for, is it for an internal heater, intake manifold heater or even a cold water ‘pump bypass’ similar to modern 3-way thermostat cooling systems?
          
The reason for asking, I am looking at adding a thermostat here. But what I can see with S2 cars is that the thermostat restricts the flow without any bypass, therefore the pump is spinning the same old coolant until the thermostat opens up. Is that assumption, correct?  

Plus a I have 4 quite bad condition radiators, however one has an extra pipe at the bottom which look like it could be used as a cold coolant bypass to the pump.  


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvination
Post by: simonandjuliet on 12 April, 2022, 05:53:49 PM
Jay , please "but into" this thread as frequently as you can .....

If you look at TAV 20 there is a pipe (45) that goes from the water pump to the bottom of the inlet manifold - it isn't shown on the TAV and my S2 has been crudely blocked up, so I can't show a real-life photo yet, but I plan to re-install it during this "rejuvenation"

I think that most waterpump castings have this option


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 12 April, 2022, 05:55:49 PM
ps - I have only just noticed my spelling mistake for " rejuvenation"  ...... sorry, been in France too long


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: Jay on 13 April, 2022, 04:18:42 PM
Thanks Simon, that explains it, I did notice you used a S2 water pump on your Cabrio, with the front intake blanked off. So looking at Sebastien engine bay I would say it’s an S1 car as you can see the wiper motor, plus no air vent, so I am guessing the copper pipe is either interior heater or a cold water bypass, as it's before the thermostat valve.       


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: Sebastien on 13 April, 2022, 04:40:23 PM
The copper pipe is an additional water exit from the cylinder head, which was fitted by Gamberini to alleviate cooling problems at the rear of the cylinder head. This is what I was told by the owner of a similar Aprilia, this is not a picture of my car!






Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: welleyes on 13 April, 2022, 08:33:35 PM
I am intrigued by the suggestion of a connection between the front of the water pump and the inlet manifold water jacket. I am looking at two series one manifolds; they each have a boss which could take a banjo connection for a copper pipe. Neither manifold has been machined to do that. Do you think it was Lancia’s intention to fit such a pipe so that water would circulate? If so, why did they not do it? I do not actually see an advantage of there being a flow of water. If anything, it might take even longer for the manifold to warm up, and once all the water is warm, there is no advantage. The relevant TAV (7a) for S1 does not show such a pipe.

Stuart


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 15 April, 2022, 05:25:06 PM
The S1 and S2 inlet manifolds are quite different and you can see that water circulates through the manifold via the water pump. It works perfectly well without the pipe because my car has always been blocked off and been fine. I will however put it back as it was originally

My car has now gone to Dog for the engine bay to be cleaned up and be painted, plus I did some other Lancia (not mine) moving today ..... nice to see an Ardea and S1 Appia together

PS Happy Easter


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 21 April, 2022, 04:48:32 PM
Engine bay has started to be prep'ed along with the dash ,screen surround and under bonnet.

Initially I had planned to paint the engine bay all black, but now it's to be body colour (green) and black so I decided to paint the dash because it was very tired and paint had started to flake badly - plus we have to mix some green paint anyway

A couple of other little jobs to do whilst we are at it - couple of small stress cracks and the valance is a bit messy, so these can be straightened and welded up without the worry of damaging anything else. The screws holding the wings on will be removed as well so that they don't get painted

A very rare treat yesterday, I got to see an amazing time-warp Ardennes - here are a couple of photos of the tool kit in the original, dry and hardened  leather bags. These are French supplied items and different to the Italian equivalents, but utterly original and I suspect the only set like this in existence - please prove me wrong !!

If I get approval from the owner I will photograph the car in detail , it is really very special . I am helping supply some missing/damaged parts


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 04 May, 2022, 01:12:10 PM
Trying to avoid "restoration creep" but it made sense to repaint both sides of the flutes at the side of the engine bay, especially since it will all now be the same colour


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: DavidLaver on 04 May, 2022, 04:39:39 PM

The joy of amateur restoration is that creep can be embraced rather than feared.  When you're done you'll only be looking for something else to tinker with.  Its a cliche with model engineers that they loose interest once its finished, its just a big lump in the way, much like people don't frame every jigsaw they do and fisherman often catch something, take the photo, and then throw it back.


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 10 May, 2022, 06:09:31 AM
Thanks for your comments David, the only issue for me is that I have such a long list of things to tinker with, I don't need to look !

My tinkering time is further complicated by farming with old and outdated machinery - my rotovator is old, my sprayer is old, my plough is old etc etc , no wonder my finger nails are always chipped and dirty

Couple of pictures of the black parts being painted by Dog - I am hoping to get the car back this week


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 28 May, 2022, 05:49:23 AM
Car should be back with me next week. Quite a lot of fiddle and tidying before paint goes on

The car has had an accident during its time (before 1970) resulting in 2 different sliding pillar designs amongst other details, but it also left some slightly tatty repairs so while the engine is out and it is all accessible and without risking damage to wiring/brake lines etc we have done some more detailed repairs

But we've not been idle - the Mini Moke has had a new head gasket and steering rack (not easy on an early car) as well as rebuilding the Cardellino. It's not a Lancia but it is very pretty , so no apologies for the photo !



Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 08 June, 2022, 07:51:35 AM
Getting closer .....

Hopefully getting the car back this week - Dog has been a real perfectionist - again, but colour should be going on tomorrow


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 16 June, 2022, 03:07:14 PM
Car back this morning and it looks fabulous ..... colour match is very good, the photos wash the new colour out a bit , but in the flesh it is very, very close.

Interestingly the colour done by "spectro" was way off, so Dog mixed it by "eye"

The bulkhead shroud in satin black (and dust) just sitting in place on the last photo

Next job is to repaint the inner wings in my anti-rust paint , and underneath in satin black where there has been some overspray. Then rewiring ......


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: chriswgawne on 17 June, 2022, 07:05:23 AM
That looks nice Simon....and I imagine it is a pleasure to work on as everything is clean. Will you make a new front loom or maybe buy one?
Chris


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: tzf60 on 17 June, 2022, 11:13:34 AM
Hi Simon,
'DOG' has done a fine job - real painters use their eye, rather than technology!
Re-fitting the engine/wiring/pipes will be a pleasure (I hope)!!
 
Tim F


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 20 June, 2022, 12:52:41 PM
Thanks for your comments

Re loom, I'm going to make it from some nice modern, woven wire. It's all black and the walls are slightly thinner than the original so I should be able to fit the extra indicator wires down the coiled tubing without too much problem

The aluminium tags will be cleaned up and reused

Just starting to get my head around it all , so first off is the easiest part of the loom - the RHS light/ignition circuit. I am going to attach the sections to the wooden board and then copy and modify them one at a time


Title: Re: Engine bay rejuvenation
Post by: simonandjuliet on 20 June, 2022, 05:13:13 PM
First two "loomlets" finished, tags cleaned up and ends soldered onto the conduits