Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: harvir93 on 05 September, 2021, 05:06:30 PM



Title: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 05 September, 2021, 05:06:30 PM
Hi All, I am new to the forum and fulvia ownership. Since buying my car I have had a few gremlins which I have been resolving slowly but surely.
The latest however has stumped me...
I removed the battery overnight to charge it and when I put it in the next day the electrical systems of the car have completely stopped working!
I have 12V at the battery and to the starter motor, the car turns over no problem. I have no spark, no lights or anything else. I have checked the earth connection and that all appears to be ok. The fuses in the cabin are all intact. When I removed and reconnected the battery I did this in the correct order. I have a original manual which came with the car and I have been going through the electrical diagrams, I cannont spot anywhere in the circuit which could be the issue.
I would be grateful for your help and advice. Thanks. 


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: davidwheeler on 05 September, 2021, 09:22:58 PM
At least you do not have to worry about electronics so it does not matter in which order you connect the terminals.   The fuse box is notorious for poor connections, many people solder the terminals for example.  Also the switches are very dodgy.   As a first trial, hot wire it by connecting the battery direct to the coil positive to see if that will give you a spark but a total lack of electrics suggests the main feed wire into the fuse box is where the problem lies.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 05 September, 2021, 10:17:40 PM
Thanks for the response David. I will check the main feed wire as you suggest. Are there any fuses in the engine bayÖ I was looking for anything next to the starter motor but couldnít see anything.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: davidwheeler on 09 September, 2021, 08:41:04 AM
Certainly none in my car, only in the fuse box.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: lancialulu on 09 September, 2021, 02:36:05 PM
Thanks for the response David. I will check the main feed wire as you suggest. Are there any fuses in the engine bayÖ I was looking for anything next to the starter motor but couldnít see anything.
S2 has a fuse for the electric fan but this would not cause your problems.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: Jaydub on 09 September, 2021, 06:58:35 PM
The fact you can crank it suggests you have feed to the Fuse box- Fuse 7, which is the main input to the fuse box from the starter motor. Check there are 3 Red wires connected to the starter terminal where the Battery positive bolts on. Check the connector block on the back of the ignition switch. It should have Red, Blue/Black, Brown and a thin Black . Make sure they are all good and the connection is good because the Black wire feeds Fuse 8 for the lights and the Brown feeds Fuse 7 for Coil and Lights.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 09 September, 2021, 09:34:06 PM
Thanks for all of your suggestions. The ignition circuit remains the only problem now. The dashboard isnt working either, including the indicators. I tried Davids trick of hot wiring the positive side of the coil which resolved the problem.
Based on this I think I have either a dodgey wire or connection. I was trying to find out what each fuse controls but failed to find anything online. My manuel is in italian so if it is in there I havent been able to work it out. Does anyone have a link to a post with this information? I will check the connections as you have suggested Jay. My car is a series 3 LHD.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: lancialulu on 10 September, 2021, 05:28:45 AM
You should equip your self with S2 manual and technical data on cd. These can be purchased on a commercial dutch website vivalancia.com.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 12 September, 2021, 12:53:18 PM
Again many thanks for all for your helpÖ Iíve checked the various connections and cleaned up the main earth and connections to the starter motor. This hasnít made a differenceÖ
Iíve found if I turn the ignition on and short fuses 8 & 9 at in the fuse box the car turns on and I can then start it using the key.
Does this mean my ignition barrel has gone bad? Am I right in thinking by touching the two circuits together when the ignition switch is on Iím making the three circuits connect?


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: davidwheeler on 15 September, 2021, 11:18:35 AM
Wiring diagrams for series 2 coupe and sport posted in technical information thread.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 20 September, 2021, 04:13:25 PM
Hi all. Thought I would just give a quick update. In the end it was a faulty ignition switch. It coincided with me taking the battery out so this is why I thought it was an electrical issue.
Iím back to resolving the fuelling issue Iím having. The root cause I think is a very corroded fuel tank which has blocked up the fuel line. The car drives fit around 10 mins but the line between the two carbs runs dry and the engine stalls out. Anyone have a rough cost estimate for replacing the tank, sender, fuel line, filter and pump. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: fay66 on 20 September, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
Hi all. Thought I would just give a quick update. In the end it was a faulty ignition switch. It coincided with me taking the battery out so this is why I thought it was an electrical issue.
Iím back to resolving the fuelling issue Iím having. The root cause I think is a very corroded fuel tank which has blocked up the fuel line. The car drives fit around 10 mins but the line between the two carbs runs dry and the engine stalls out. Anyone have a rough cost estimate for replacing the tank, sender, fuel line, filter and pump. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Try fitting a filter king unit, I had a similar problem years ago with my 2c Berlina, the filter king solved the problem, hopefully you'll be as lucky.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: Neil on 20 September, 2021, 04:35:14 PM
if the tank is not perforated you could try applying a tank sealant after thorough cleaning and replacing the filters (including the tank filter gauze) might be a lot cheaper than a new tank. Clean the fuel lines and you might be able to get going again


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 20 September, 2021, 08:22:27 PM
Thatís great advice Neil - I have had a quick look online and Por-15 fuel tank restoration kit seems to be the way to go. Let me know if you think otherwise. The tank doesnít have any pin holes so this solution seems a good way to go for about a tenth of the price of a new tank.

Brian - thanks as well for the filter king suggestion. I noticed that it comes highly recommended on the forum. There seems to be two sizes 42 and 48mm diameter. Is there a particular one that fits the fulvia best.

I think I can blow the fuel lines out with compressed air to get rid of any junk in there.



Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 21 September, 2021, 08:04:11 AM
I bought the 67mm Filter King, but I think that this measurement relates to the depth?


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: dhla40 on 21 September, 2021, 08:38:51 AM
I had a problem with a rusty tank but was wary of using a sealant as I have heard this sometimes comes off and blocks filters. I baulked at paying £500 for a new one so after a bit of ebay trawling found a new MG midget tank for £100 that looked a likely substitute. It is 6 gallon instead of 8 and slightly smaller but fits nicely with a bit of fabrication, I do not do many long distance trips these days so the reduced capacity is not a problem.

Sean   


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: Neil on 21 September, 2021, 09:00:25 AM
I used the tank sealant about 10 years ago so far has worked perfectly, coated the filler tube, also fitted the smaller Filter King with regulator with the glass bowl then you can see any debris that might have come through from the tank.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: fay66 on 21 September, 2021, 01:25:01 PM
I used the tank sealant about 10 years ago so far has worked perfectly, coated the filler tube, also fitted the smaller Filter King with regulator with the glass bowl then you can see any debris that might have come through from the tank.
I fitted the small Filter King with the glass bowl as well.
Brian
8227 8)


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 21 September, 2021, 10:34:16 PM
Thanks all... I have ordered a glass bowl filter king together with a Por-15 tank restoration kit and some general degreaser.
I have watched a few youtube videos of the sealer being applied... its a lengthy process but seems to do the job if done with some care during the prep stages.
My plan is to replace the rubber fuel lines with new ones and blow out the solid fuel line with the air compressor as best i can. I can try to adapt my plumbing pressure testing pump to pump degreaser down the lines as well to help with the cleaning.
I had a look in the tops of both carbs, where the floats are, today and there appears to be no debris from the tank in them but I will need to get them off and inspect them fully to be sure. The existing Mahele filter seems to be doing a good job so far.
I have siphoned out the petrol which was full of rusty bits and unbolted the tank out of the boot floor, just need to remove the hoses and it should come out no problem (fingers crossed)


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 24 September, 2021, 10:21:40 PM
I have now cleaned and sealed the tank using the POR-15 fuel tank kit. A pretty lengthy process but I think it has done the job. I can put fuel back in the tank from Monday (if nowhere near me has run out!).
I also blasted out the flow and return fuel lines with the air compressor. There was a fair amount of rust in them too (the colour of the petrol was like mahogony varnish). I have received the filter king and i have been looking into installation and I am little confused. As it is a fuel regulator I think it should be installed after the fuel pump but as a fuel filter i would prefer it before the pump to help protect it. So should I keep my inline filter for the fuel into the pump and fit the filter king between the pump and the carbs? or does it go before the pump in place of the inline filter and I am overthinking things
Location wise, I think I will install on to the arch just above where the fuel lines enter the engine bay. Should I use self tapping screws or drill holes in the overhanging section and bolt it through with the supplied bolts and nuts?


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: nistri on 25 September, 2021, 06:45:32 AM
The filter king is a fuel pressure regulator (to be adjusted via the top screw, clockwise you will INCREASE thw flow)) and, therefore, should go after the fuel pump which not rarely pushes out too high pressure. There is a flange in the engine bay where two holes can be drilled and the regulator fitted with nuts and bolts, I think the manual has a picture for the fitting, Andrea


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 25 September, 2021, 03:58:18 PM
Thanks Andrea. you have confirmed what I thought. I was a little worried about the width of the flange if there would be enough metal and space to bolt through. Measure twice and drill once!! I will leave the mahle fuel filter in on the inlet side as seems to be doing a cracking job for the time being. 
Is there a specific pressure to set the regulator too or should I leave it as factory.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: nistri on 26 September, 2021, 07:04:07 AM
If you have a suitable fuel manometer to be temporarily fitted before the carbs, go for 0.3-0.4 bar at idle. Otherwise at idle revs gently turn the screw to achieve optimum running. Andrea


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: davidwheeler on 26 September, 2021, 09:48:10 PM
I have a filter before the electric pump on my Fulvia and my Aprilia as well as Filter Kings.   They protect the pumps and every now and then have to be replaced to clear them.     I sometimes think you cannot have too many fuel filters.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 26 September, 2021, 10:20:55 PM
Thanks both.
I fitted the filter king and replaced the fuel lines today. The mahle kl145 filter that was in place before the pump has lots of small pieces of rust in it so Iíll get a replacement for it. I think itís best to give the mechanical pump some protection.
Unfortunately, the two petrol stations closest to me are out of fuel and Iím pretty sure when they will have some there will be long queues again!
Iíve seen others on the forum talk about electrical pumps but I guess these are used to prime the system to the mechanical pump rather than in place of it?
I also noticed the connection for the oil breather pipe has perished badly where it connects into the air box. Would anyone know if that small connector can be replaced. I would prefer to replace it rather than running a separate oil breather filter.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: lancialulu on 27 September, 2021, 06:24:34 AM
I also noticed the connection for the oil breather pipe has perished badly where it connects into the air box. Would anyone know if that small connector can be replaced. I would prefer to replace it rather than running a separate oil breather filter.
Readily available. Try Omicron.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 28 September, 2021, 04:07:44 PM
I ended up putting 5L of fuel in and having a drive up and down the road a few times. Itís certainly driving a lot better and didnít conk out as before. I think it definitely needs to be tuned to run better, especially since the introduction of the fuel regulator. Iíve met a guy who is an engine rebuilder (Iím doing the inspections for his new garage/workshop) so heís agreed to give me hand with it. He definitely will come in handy when it comes to carrying to an engine rebuild!
Next is to get some fuel in it once the whole Ďcrisisí blows over by the end of the week and take it for a longer run.
It has an aftermarket gear knob on it which came off in my hand when driving! Iíve bought an original one which was on eBay. Unsurprisingly the stick/thread has been hacked away so my plan is to tap the hole in the shaft and use a m8 to m10 stud adapter to get it on there.
Thanks all for your help! Itís been great connecting with you all on here!


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: davidwheeler on 28 September, 2021, 09:41:22 PM
I have fitted electrical pumps ot Aprilia and Fulvia and scrapped the mechanical ones.   Pressure control via a Filter King is essential - though the 6V Aprilia one is a special low pressure type to start with.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: lancialulu on 29 September, 2021, 05:51:08 AM
It has an aftermarket gear knob on it which came off in my hand when driving! Iíve bought an original one which was on eBay. Unsurprisingly the stick/thread has been hacked away so my plan is to tap the hole in the shaft and use a m8 to m10 stud adapter to get it on there.
Thanks all for your help! Itís been great connecting with you all on here!
I would look for a replacement chrome stick shift. Relatively easy to change. The bottom boot may need changing anyway and probably more expensive than a second hand shift. I think I may have a spare shift stick if interested.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 06 October, 2021, 09:21:06 PM
Thanks for the offer Tim. In the end my stud idea worked out well. I had to get a stud made by a chap on the Slough Trading Estate for a couple of quid.
No that I have replaced the gearknob I noticed the gearstick rotates, is there a way of tightening this too. I have also tried adjusting the handbrake as it not holding the car. I did this by tightening the nut under the car where the cable splits but this has not really worked. From the brake diagram it looks like shoes can be adjusted by an adjuster in the hub? I am guessing this is like drum brake adjuster and I have to wind this out until the shoes drag on the hub and then wind in by around 10 clicks?
Next few jobs are to replace the tired non tensioned seatbelts, remove an LPG conversion which had been fitted to the car in 2018 and to give a good polish.
Any recommendations for seat belts, I had been looking at set from secureon.


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: lancialulu on 07 October, 2021, 06:58:28 AM
The gear shift is suffering from a worn "antivibration" set of bits inside the chrome part of the lever. A Chinese jigsaw puzzle....

see https://www.pieces-fulvia.com/kit-mounting-rings-gearbox-lever-fulvia-serie-2-3-all-models.htm

You have to take the lever off to remedy.

Re handbrake there is an aperture in the drum and with a torch at the bottom of the brake assembly you should see a brass knurled adjuster "nut" with a strong brake shoe spring above it. The adjuster is operated on by a flat blade screw driver. To adjust, slacken the cable and wind up the adjust till the drum locks then back off (about6-8 clicks should have the drum free). If you have an air line good idea to blow the dust out of the drum (dont breath it in...). You may find there is no friction material left on the shoes in which case you need to withdraw the drum. A special socket is required that can be hired from the club.



Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: harvir93 on 23 October, 2021, 12:09:20 PM
Many thanks again for your help Tim. Iíve adjusted the handbrake and it seems to be working well now. Iíll put up with the spinning lever for the time being. Iíve swapped the battery out for a Varta one as the old one was pretty knackered and installed a discarnect to protect it. Following this the headlights, heater switch, wipers and brake lights have all stopped working. Having done some investigating I think itís the ignition switch again! These items are on fuse 8 and switch through the ignition switch. The car fires up but nothing else wants to work. Any ideas why every time I touch the battery the ignition switch goes faulty or is it just a quirk of my car. Also, any tips for undoing the security bolts. Iíll have to order a new switch from omicron on Monday
 


Title: Re: Electrical Problems
Post by: Wangler on 24 October, 2021, 10:15:59 PM
Hmm - Not convinced that the fuel sealant is the answer. The fuel tank is baffled and it would be difficult to cover all the surfaces. I think itís more designed for motorbike tanks which are relatively straightforward.

Fitting a new fuel tank should be pretty straightforward although you may have to budget for a brass connecting collar if the one you have is plastic (they usually break when you try to undo them). Yes a new tank will set you back over £500, but at least you shouldnít have to buy a Filter King, a cheap in-line filter will do the job. It should also completely eliminate any worries about getting a clean fuel supply to the carbs.