Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Beta and Montecarlo => Topic started by: jus on 01 August, 2021, 09:01:07 PM

Title: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 01 August, 2021, 09:01:07 PM
Hi all.

Took my 037 to Shelsley Walsh today for a couple of runs up the hill - no timing, and not competitive.

This is the second run that I had - the first was after some rain, so I took it easy. The track is very narrow, very steep and the 037 has a really fat behind. I left it in 3rd for the majority of the way up and into 2nd and slowed a bit for the last few bends (after receiving instructions from my good lady). Luckily, someone filmed it from behind the start line and sent the film over which is really nice to have.

I think the commentator was just about to say that he thought it was a replica when the first part was stopped. Not sure why he thought that because they had all of the details that I sent over for the selection process.
I had the carb apart yesterday, this time to check the float level since I now have a datasheet for it. As it was, it would have been letting in too much fuel (it was set 4mm too high). However, it didn't make much difference to an issue that I've noticed, which is that it feels a bit stuttery when at steady cruising speed on the flat with hardly any throttle. I tend to run it (and it seems to generally run happier), if the choke is pulled out just a bit which I guess points to idle mix or a vac leak somewhere (please feel free to weigh in). The carb has had an ultrasonic clean and a refurb kit. Fuel pressure is bang on 3.5psi. Brake servos (it has 2) both rebuilt and all brake and vacuum lines and hoses were checked / renewed a few months ago.


Not too sure how to include a PDF, but this is for the 36DCNVH, which is actually from a Maserati Biturbo:


One thing I noticed on mine, is that there seemed to only be one idle mixture screw, and a short 'blanking' screw on the other side. This carb consists of 2 identical circuits - it's not a progressive twin-choke like on a Beta - both butterflies, chokes and pumps operate at the same time, so I couldn't see why the idle screws shouldn't also be replicated. The data sheet lists 2 idle screws as well - but it isn't strictly for my carb - which is a 40DCNVH and it's on a Lancia with a charger, not a Maserati with 2 turbos. Any pics that I find of a Biturbo carb shows 2 identical idle screws. If one idle screw is essentially missing and not valving its idle circuit, then is adjusting the one that remains really going to have a big effect - remembering that they are just feeding a common inlet manifold? Thoughts and opinions please.

Here's the needle. The blanking screw is M5 and probably 7 or 8 threads in length, so it doesn't get anywhere near the bottom of the valve seat.



Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: frankxhv773t on 02 August, 2021, 09:31:06 AM
Is there a chance of sharing the video to the LMC face book page or having permission to do so if you don't frequent such places?

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 02 August, 2021, 03:18:16 PM
Sure - please feel free.

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: frankxhv773t on 02 August, 2021, 03:33:01 PM
Thankyou. I'm sure it will be enjoyed.

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: sparehead3 on 03 August, 2021, 08:38:34 PM
Really nice ! Sounds great :)

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: Richard Fridd on 04 August, 2021, 06:40:50 AM
 Perhaps a second tapered volume screw could be tried. Not seating suggests full bore flow? I don't know about your carb, but my Solex PAAI volume screws alter the amount of mixture and the pilot jets/ air bleed jets combination govern the richness/weakness of the mixture delivered to the volume adjustment tapered screws. Lovely car, the only two I have seen was one at a 1980's Syon Park Italian Car Day, and one at a LMC Goodwood day RTCC giving track rides for a small donation. I quite enjoyed that!

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 04 August, 2021, 10:34:18 AM
Hi Richard.

Yes - I agree that having a short screw that just caps off the top of the hole, will be equivalent to having a regular screw but in a fully open state. When I got the car, the remaining idle screw was 6.75 turns out from seating with the other side being as it was. Adjusting the idle screw didn't really seem to make much difference.

I put a stunt-double in from another Weber - but it just has a regular tapered i.e. pointed end. Now, both screws are around 1.25 turns away from gently seating, and the adjustment has much more of an effect. However, I guess I need one of the correct profile as it more than likely fits into something of a similar shape. If I can't find another identical one, then I'll get another made.

I'm still trying to find out if it should have 2, or whether this blanking screw is correct. I've asked the Baldi brothers in Turin (the mechanics who worked on 037 and S4 in period), but am waiting for a reply. I've also emailed another 037 owner in the UK and asked him to take a picture of his carb, so hopefully I'll have a definitive answer sometime soon.

Thanks for the input.

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: Duncan23 on 28 August, 2021, 11:14:30 AM
I saw your car at the Retro Rides Gathering last weekend. It looked utterly magnificent. ;D

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 28 August, 2021, 12:04:50 PM
Thanks Duncan.

I like to get it over to every event that I can. It's great to see and hear people's reactions. It was in among about 16 Integrales, a Fulvia and a Flaminia on Tanc Barratt's club stand. So nice to see that many together, and I think it was the best looking and attended stand (without bias of course).

It's not running 100% at the moment due to the carb issue, but it's back again this Sunday for the Supercar fest.

For some closure to the original thread: I asked Paul at Vere Lancia about the odd idle screw (they have finished my works Fulvia now - it's coming back next week after 10 months). He confirmed what I thought - it should have two identical screws as they are duplicate circuits that just share the float chamber. So - I need to find a used one, or have another made, as they aren't stocked any longer.

Here's a pic from last Sunday at Retro Rides:


Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 31 August, 2021, 12:33:42 PM
And here she is at this last weekend's Supercar Fest.

Interestingly, the Baldi twins in Turin have got back to me, and said that the blanking screw is correct on the right side of the carb, and it shouldn't have two identical adjusters.


Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: Richard Fridd on 01 September, 2021, 08:14:01 PM
And here she is at this last weekend's Supercar Fest.

Interestingly, the Baldi twins in Turin have got back to me, and said that the blanking screw is correct on the right side of the carb, and it shouldn't have two identical adjusters.              Out of interest, was there an explanation regarding adjustment of the circuit with the blank, as opposed to the circuit with the tapered screw? Richard


Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 01 September, 2021, 08:36:23 PM
Hi Richard. No - there wasn't any explanation. I'm inclined to think that it should have two - even though these guys are experts in all things Group B. The carb is a pair of identical circuits, so everything should be the same across them. Paul at Vere Lancia, and then the Baldis with differing views. Difficult.

So, I've got a couple of new idle screws anyway, which I'll try when the car gets back from Salon Prive. It was collected yesterday by the guys at Kimera - and it's now sat alongside two of their new EVO37 cars until Sunday. I'll post a pic when I get back on Thursday.

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 02 September, 2021, 08:38:45 PM
A few pics form the Salon Prive event. As I provided the Kimera group with my 037 to show alongside their new EVO37, I was treated to a test drive (as a passenger) in the grey car below. I have to say, that this car is absolutely incredible. I've not experienced this kind of brutal acceleration with associated forced induction noise - not even close, in anything else before.

It's very similar in configuration and output power to a works S4 - in fact, de-tuned from around 600bhp to 450 for improved reliability (and sanity) - as it's just a 2.1L 4 cyl, RWD as the Evo2 037 was - but with an added turbo like the S4. It's really and updated 037 crossed with an S4. Luca Betti , the owner of Kimera drove it. I'll not forget this car in a hurry. I'll try and get a video up together on YT over the weekend.




Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: Andy B on 04 September, 2021, 06:43:34 AM
Thank you for posting these wonderful pictures . Your car looks amazing! .

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 05 October, 2021, 09:54:57 PM
Thanks Andy. I absolutely love it.

An update on the idle mix screws. I got a couple of new ones and installed them.
Adjusting either has an effect on the idle - as you'd expect, and it seemed happy at about 1.25 turns for both. And I thought that was an end to it. However, when it was properly cold (i.e. not started for a couple of weeks), and the temperature in the garage had fallen to 13C or so, I tried it again expecting it to start up as well as it had done previously - but it refused to fire up. Plugs out, cleaned etc. and left on charge overnight. It was only after I unscrewed the side (that had been blanked off) by so much that it wouldn't have been valving the circuit at all, that it started.
I'm wondering whether to have both screws at the same setting, but more open - rather than the 1.25 turns out that I had. Maybe there's a position where it starts, and runs ok as well. I say this, because it seems to need a bit of choke at idle, cruising speeds and pulling off.  At cruising, I get this kind of effect where you have fuel dripping through the carb and it feels uneven. At pull off - sometimes there's a stutter and at idle, I can sometimes get a bit of hunting. All seems better with a bit of choke.

Don't get me wrong - it's not a major problem, but I'm sure it can be better.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 15 May, 2022, 11:14:43 PM
Hi all. A further update on the idle screw / jet situation on this car.

I had to replace the battery recently - which involved taking the carb and the carb to supercharger manifold off (they really buried the battery well on these), so I took the opportunity to take the carb apart again. I stripped it down and put it through the ultrasonic cleaner. On putting it back together, I noticed that the idle jets were different sizes - a 45 and a 55. Strange - because as far as I can see, the carb consists of two identical circuits.

Just to recap, when I first got this car it didn't idle too smoothly and adjusting the single idle screw didn't seem to make much difference. The idle oscillated at start up, and in general, the car idled, pulled off, cruised and generally ran better with with some choke even when fully warm. Couldn't find any vac leaks, electrics were fine, fuel delivery ok, so I focused on the carb. I got another idle adjust screw and fitted it late last year in place of the blanking cap that was installed where the 2nd idle screw should be. Installing and adjusting it didn't seem to make much difference.

So - as it was still generally 'better' during idle situations with the choke slightly open - I took that to mean that the idle circuit was running a bit lean. My plan was to try some larger idle jet sizes given modern fuel v. 80s 5 star.

The next phase was to get some pairs of jets - 50, 55, 60, 65 and 70. After making sure that the carb cleaning and rebuild hadn't improved things, I installed two 70 jets in place of the 45 and the 55. I thought it best to go straight for the largest ones to make any effect more obvious. I then had the potential to adjust from 0 up to 1.4mm (combined) of idle jet. So - it started up ok and ran after a bit of twiddling of the idle screws, but it had reverted back to the oscillating tickover (see previous posts). However - I've now found that if I screw both idle adjusters right in (but obviously not driving them hard into the end position), the car is happy under all conditions. It starts fine, doesn't oscillate to any real extent, doesn't stutter at cruising and has no flat spots. I'm pleased, but I'd like to understand why this setting seems to cure the issues.

Does the Beta VX have a similar Weber DCNVH carb fitted? If so - I wonder if it has one or two adjuster screws.

Thanks for any input,

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: SanRemo78 on 16 May, 2022, 09:03:16 AM
Pretty sure the Beta VX cars had a 36DCA carburettor but my tinkering was almost 30 years ago now and I left it to Barry Waterhouse to modify the chokes on the engine he built for the Stratos replica. You may be able to research that carburettor's spec online?

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: lancialulu on 16 May, 2022, 02:27:12 PM
I can confirm my HPEVX carb has two idle screws. The car is new to me so only just starting to understand it. Run nice though with no issues.

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 16 May, 2022, 02:42:33 PM
Thanks Guy and Tim.
Any ideas as to why I'm seeing this kind of behaviour? (Directed to anyone reading).

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: Richard Fridd on 16 May, 2022, 04:30:31 PM
A bit like my Solex 40 PAAI then!
 Better with choke also, air leak at spindles or low fuel level in carburettor in my case I expect(standard jetting).  But one jet alteration seems to upset another.

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 29 July, 2022, 07:31:07 PM
So - today, I took the 037 to a rolling road. It's in a configuration where it has two idle (slow running) adjustment screws, both pretty much wound in (by me), to get the best overall running / starting & tickover that I could get.
The verdict was, that it was pretty much spot on - and no changes were made. The owner of the road confirmed that it should have two adjustment screws, which is what I changed it to a while ago - so that was good to know.
I've sent a mail over to Joe Macari to see if they have a picture of the carb on the car that they currently have for sale (or whether they could have a quick look) - but as predicted, no reply:

Looks quite nice in this colour - but I won't be changing...

Title: Re: 037 Outing
Post by: jus on 29 July, 2022, 09:16:01 PM
Hot off the press - I have a reply from Joe Macari (one of his guys anyway).
You can see a blanking screw in the form of a cap-head has been installed. So - one adjuster and one side is not adjustable and effectively fully open as a valve.