Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: ian on 05 May, 2008, 10:39:39 AM



Title: S3 master cylinder
Post by: ian on 05 May, 2008, 10:39:39 AM
Attempting to refurbish master cylinder, have concise manual etc. any extra advice?
how many seals should there be in a repair kit,? :(some seem to be missing from mine!
Also, does any one know the spanner size for the rear caliper to hub bolts, i need to dismantle and refurbish the calipers as well, so any help or parts would be welcome. thanks in advance :) 


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: ian on 05 May, 2008, 06:25:37 PM
Also, does any one know the spanner size for the rear caliper to hub bolts, i need to dismantle and refurbish the calipers as well, so any help or parts would be welcome. thanks in advance :)


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Philm on 05 May, 2008, 07:35:12 PM
Bleeding can be tricky, it is best fill the cylinder with fluid off car completely, get all the air out then fit it. It is a bit messy but by covering everything up you should be ok. I believe the rear caliper bolts are 17mm A/F.


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Neil Lewis on 06 May, 2008, 10:25:07 PM
When you put the calipers back on, remember to use the tab washers.  I didn't and I had a caliper come off on the M3... not good!

Neil


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: ian on 06 May, 2008, 11:01:08 PM
Successfully rebuilt the master cylinder, but on removing it from the servo, I found the servo full of brake fluid! Wondered where it was all disappearing to? Can I clean up and re-use the servo or will iIhave to replace?
On to the rear calipers. Looks likely that I will have to find some spares, if there are any out there could you let me know? I'm keen to get her back on the road within the next month (famous last words) ;D


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: rogerelias on 07 May, 2008, 11:34:23 AM
Ian. If it helps , i have used the rear calipers off  a volvo 240 series. make sure that they are Girling units, i seem to remember that i had to open up the mounting holes slightly, the same pads should fit fine. good luck.


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: nistri on 07 May, 2008, 12:10:46 PM
If the servo was full of brake fluid, it means that the master cylinder seals were shot. It is difficult to predict if the servo is now damaged. After taking the servo off the car, remove its content of old brake fluid and wash it extensively with alcohol. Let it dry out. Push the long rod at the back several times to expell any fluid and check that the mechanism moves correctly. Only after refitting it to the car, you will be able to tell if it is OK. Overhauling the servo is a difficult job and should be done by a specialist brake workshop (it is not too difficult to open it but it is difficult to reseal it again).  Good luck.


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Philm on 07 May, 2008, 08:42:07 PM
I have a pair of rear calipers that need overhauling if you are interested


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Neil Lewis on 07 May, 2008, 10:23:22 PM
If the servo was full of brake fluid, it means that the master cylinder seals were shot.

I had this on my Series 3.  It would belch out white smoke whenever I performed a dramatic manouvre as the brake fluid was sucked up the servo hose into the inlet manifold.  Amazingly the brakes still worked fine.  When I took the master cylinder off, the brake fluid was lapping the hole in the servo where the cylinder was bolted on so it must have building up over a long period of time.  Fortunately I had a new servo to replace it and a set of cylinder seals.  The whole lot was quite easy to change in about half a day.  Not much help to you though.

When rebuilding the cylinder make sure you put the two springs back in correctly.  There's one which is much stiffer than the other (can't remember which one).  Careful segregation of the parts as you remove them should make putting them back together straight-forward.

As for rear calipers, I believe that they are the same as those fitted to the front of Mark 1 Escorts; the pads are certainly the same.  It always amused me that the Fulvia had brakes on the back which were expected to stop the weight of an Escort when fitted on the front axle.  By the way, for autotesting (unashamed plug for the Lancia Driving Tests), the balance valve on the rear axle could be adjusted to make the back lock up when the footbrake was applied hard and that saved using the handbrake for "handbrake" turns.

Neil


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: ian on 07 May, 2008, 11:32:47 PM
Thanks for all your replies and suggestions, keep them coming!
May well try the Escort and Volvo thing.
Phil, where abouts are you located? I also may be interested in your spares.
Neil. The belching thing happened to me a few years back. I could never find the reason! It used to happen when I was taking long a left hand bend at speed on a slip road, before entering a particular duel carriage way, a quick glance in the mirror showed the smoke, but  she never used any oil, sounded fine and never smoked at any other time. The reason I,m looking at the braking system now, is that I have had total brake failure twice...once on the way back from the m.o.t station!
The thing is, this has probably been going on for at least a couple of years and by the amount of fluid in the servo, probably more, possibly with the previous owner I,m aware of how much damage the fluid will do to paintwork, but what about the internals to the servo? I will strip it down at the weekend and have a gander. Can you still buy alcohol at the chemist? Used to use it to clean up my vinyl records,,..remember them?


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Scarpia on 08 May, 2008, 06:07:58 PM
make sure you watch for the shim washers that fall out from between the calipers and the mounting points when you remove the bolts.They are varying thicknesses and need to be put back correctly to line up the calipers with the discs properly.(or was that just on my car.. ::)..).


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: ian on 17 May, 2008, 06:05:26 PM
According to my local motor factors, I won't be able to get hold of any rear caliper refurb kits, heath and safety and all that.
My choices seem to be to either, buy new refurbished calipers from specialist companys or find some old/new stock kits from someone.
Any Ideas.   


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Scarpia on 18 May, 2008, 08:04:47 AM
What do you need to do to the calipers.What nonsense over H&S.Mostly its just a case of pushing (with air) the pistons out cleaning up and replacing the seals.That's a fairly routine (but messy) job for a car that has  stood for a while.Don't attempt to split the caliper, its not needed.I had done this job a few times in the past and parts are (were )readily available and not expensive.
having said that I just had all my calipers completely refurbished in the spring due to lack of time by a local brake specialist to be sure everything is fully ok and they are now in perfect condition.(Only thing I wouldn't have chosen is the bronze paint but you don't really see it on the car.) 


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: fay66 on 18 May, 2008, 08:18:26 AM
I've got a seal kit that I carry in my spares box that came from Omicron a couple of years ago, so I would have thought that one of our usual sources of spares should be able to supply, they also crop up on ebay from time to time but don't just look in Europe or the UK, you need to look under Worldwide, for some strange reason a lot of the items from Germany & Holland don't appear in the Europe listings ???

Brian 8227 8)


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: fay66 on 18 May, 2008, 08:39:35 AM
Complete set on sale at Ebay Italy offered at 55 currently no bids, item number 140233553947   same seller as air filter.

Brian
8227 8)



Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: ian on 27 May, 2008, 10:32:51 PM
Rear calipers replaced with refurbished units, although all the shims fell out, 3 on one side, 4 on the other? not to sure which one goes where. Any ideas Scarpia? :-[  I filled the master cylinder on the car with dot 4 brake fluid bleed through the recommended way with no problems, using an old easy bleed system I had knocking about. Air filter and oil filter sourced. Forgot about a sump plug tool, any alternatives? Is the plug used by any other marques or will I have to buy the right one? Sump sits very low doesn't it!


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Scarpia on 28 May, 2008, 05:41:12 PM
Quote
make sure you watch for the shim washers that fall out from between the calipers and the mounting points when you remove the bolts

The problem with experience is that you gain it mostly just after you needed it. Like I said , the same thing happened to me. I seem to remember using feeler guages, a bit of trial and error, wheel spinning to check free movement and tiny blobs of copper grease to glue the washers in position while I put the bolts in. Sounds right anyway......
i'll check the book later for the spacing required, pad to disc and tolerance allowed.


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Richard Fridd on 28 May, 2008, 06:09:57 PM
i normally use a suitable hexagonal wrench to rotate the sump drain plug - being careful not to lose the associated copper seal unless i have a new one to hand-


Title: Re: S3 master cylinder
Post by: Neil Lewis on 28 May, 2008, 06:54:11 PM
Quote
make sure you watch for the shim washers that fall out from between the calipers and the mounting points when you remove the bolts

I seem to remember using feeler gauges, a bit of trial and error, wheel spinning to check free movement and tiny blobs of copper grease to glue the washers in position while I put the bolts in. Sounds right anyway......

I also used the trial-and-"improvement" method (political correctness gone mad) and just put the shim in so that there was as equal amount of space on both side of the disk between itself and the calipers.  Being as though there are pistons on both sides of the disk, so long as you have space both sides, the calipers will never move closer to the disk and start to rub.  So I say forget the book and just go by eye and feel.  It works for me.

Most importantly, don't forget the tab washers under the bolt heads.  I did and a front caliper came off on the M3 and nearly ruined a wheel.  The bolt of course was lost and there wasn't another M10 fine bolt I could borrow from elsewhere on the car so I had to come home on an RAC truck.  Most undignified.

Neil