Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: Keithver on 24 August, 2020, 10:02:39 AM



Title: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 24 August, 2020, 10:02:39 AM
Hi. I'm new to the forum, new to Lancias and new to rebuilding - my first rebuild project. Thanks to all of you for informing me and for the inspiration, especially Norm Thomas for his detailed 'workshop-manual-like' posts. I bought it at the beginning of March. When I got it home my wife wanted to know why I wanted to rebuild it. She said it looks fine as is.
Besides the odd little bit of rust here and there  ::) ha ha! she didn't run very well. I eventually discovered that the fuel return line inside the tank was blocked causing carb #1 to flood horribly. By the time I had sorted this I had removed the seats and so had to drive sitting on the floor boards. We live on a small holding so quiet and no traffic (also illegal I imagine) I think the engine will be okay. I'll keep you up dated
Keith


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 24 August, 2020, 10:14:56 AM
Some pics would help


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: fay66 on 24 August, 2020, 02:59:46 PM
Keith,
Throw the radio away, fit a blanking panel with the lovely Fulvia script, then listen to the music of a Fulvia engine.
Good luck whichever way you decide to go.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 24 August, 2020, 03:18:03 PM
Thanks Brian. Will take 'note' 8)


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 28 August, 2020, 01:49:30 PM
during lockdown, I have stripped everything out of the car so that it is only the shell. While waiting (lock down) to be able to take it for sandblasting I did some investigation of my own.
I removed paint and plenty of body filler as the photos show.
I discovered a fair amount. The car had been resprayed and badly re-assembled. As I was taking it apart and found things missing or badly done, I would go to the spares pile I received with the car and look for things. I was amazed at what I found and how much I was able to re-instate in the car (which could easily have been done by the previous assembler). Once I had worked out where the pile of spares needed to go, I was able to label everything and take photos.
Rust - there was rust all over. A lot of it due to the lousy repairs, the overuse of filler and the respray. All the drain holes in the door bottoms etc. had been closed up. Nowhere for the water to go! The quality of the welds can be seen in the front inner wheel arch (last photo). The bonnet and boot lid skins and inner frames had been attacked. The sills (inner and outer), wheel arches, both floor pans, the battery tray, door lower skins (outer and inner), the petrol tank surround, the rear parcel shelf, The rear window surround, even the middle skin in the rear left C pillar and the rear valance.
She is back from the sand blasting, so all is revealed. I am working through as many of the repairs as I can myself and waiting for a slot at the repair and paint shop for now


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 30 August, 2020, 08:35:03 AM
AAAGH!  Does the last picture show what they call spot welding!!
A lot of work needed but you seem to be on the right track.
Mike


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 30 August, 2020, 02:58:55 PM
Mike, I was thinking more like bird brown stuff!
I'm taking the leaf springs in this week for checking and the brake calipers and booster in for re-furb.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: chriswgawne on 30 August, 2020, 04:00:26 PM
Are you going to totally strip the body of paint?
Chris


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 31 August, 2020, 06:34:48 AM
Yes Chris. She has been stripped from top to bottom and been given a protective layer. The photo shows her as she is now


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 14 September, 2020, 03:35:46 PM
Now that the whole car is in pieces, it is time to start checking everything. I started with the drive shafts. Although it is a Series 2 car, I seem to have Series 1 drive shafts (which is apparently normal???) TAV50 in the book.
To get them apart I placed the shaft in the vice and gave the outer joint a swift tap with a dead-blow hammer. They pop off easily enough. To get the inner(gearbox) joint off, you need to remove the cir-clip on the shaft end (photo 1) and slide the inner joint off. I cleaned off the grease with a power washer as best I could. I nicked alignment marks into the 3 pieces of each joint with the grinder (photo 2) for later re-assembly.

Remove the large cir-clips from the outer sleeve of the gearbox joint. Pull the sleeve off. That releases the 24 x 9,5mm or 3/8" balls (4 per slot). Rotate the middle ring of the joint (photo 4) so that you can remove each ball (6 x 12,8mm or 1/2" per joint). Removing the inners of the joint is a matter of tilting the middle ring (photo 3) to allow one of the 2 larger holes to line up with a nib on the outer housing and jiggling it out. The center piece needs to be turned so that 1 of its nibs line up with a large hole and can be jiggled out.

My ball races seem to be in good condition so I just replaced all the balls which were a little worn. Grease everything up with black CV grease before re-assembling using your alignment marks and insert the balls. The workings of the inner and outer joints is the same process. Make sure that you replace all 4 cir-clips on the gearbox joint. I left one out so had to remove the joint and fit it in  all of that new grease. :'( ::) Not easy!

Put the boots and the alu. cover onto the shaft before fitting the joints. Squeeze the outer wire shaft cir-clips so that they are the proper size and click them into their slots on either end of the shaft. The metal sleeve on the inner end of both the splines needs to be moved up the spline to cover and compress the cir-clip (photo 5). Fill the center (female) holes of the joints with CV grease and slot the joint onto the shaft splines. A bit fiddly, but you can feel when it is correct. Give the joint a good whack with a dead-blow hammer to slide all the way down the shaft.

The new outer boots come with a metal ring instead of a clamp to fix them to the joint. Push the outer joint right into the boot as far as it will go. The steel outer casing of the joint has a lip to stop the boot and clamp from coming off, You maneuver the ring over the boot from the outside of the joint and butt it up against the boot lip (photo 6). Pull the outer joint out of the boot again and the ring will clamp the whole lot nicely in place.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nistri on 15 September, 2020, 07:46:26 AM
Nice work, well done. Before refitting the small clip to the outer boot, with great care insert a long screwdriver into the boot and move the CV joint around to allow air to escape or vacuum to be formed. This ensures that the CV boot will last more than 1 week. Andrea


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 15 September, 2020, 02:27:35 PM
Ah! Nice to know. Thanks Andrea


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 16 September, 2020, 02:39:50 PM
I took the exhaust manifold to a specialist to have it checked out. He said that he hadn't seen such a good quality manifold for years. It is brown and surface rusted but seems as if it is in good condition otherwise. He did suggest that I have it cleaned up and ceramic coated inside a out. It seems as if the ceramic stops further corrosion and runs cooler. Has anyone got any experience with ceramic coating and is it worth the price. ZAR2800 to have it done. Probably just over GBP130


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Walbarr on 16 September, 2020, 05:41:35 PM
Ive seen this done several times on Wheeler Dealers
Its supposed to reduce heat in the engine bay as well helping slightly with power so I would say worth it
Id like to get my Appia exhaust manifold coated inside and out if I can somewhere that does it close by


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 16 September, 2020, 09:01:35 PM
Fwiiw fulvia exhaust can glow cherry red but are buried on the other side of the engine far away from the carbs. I have travelled all over Europe in my Fulvia sometimes in 30deg plus heat and not had any problems. Ceramic can protect mild steel exhausts from corrosion but my limited experience with this is that it only last c5 years before breaking down (outside gtee period!).


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 15 October, 2020, 12:20:25 PM
The car is about to go to the bodywork/spray painter to do all of the structural work (sills etc) that I'm not comfortable handling. I am checking the fit of windows etc  before she is painted so that I don't have to do it with new bright shiny paintwork.
Am I right in presuming that the outer door edge that takes the s/s outer trim should be a straight line. (see photo)The two "U" channels that secure the vent window at the front give an opening of 16/17mm. should that continue all the way back to just behind the opening for the lock knob. Are the inner and outer lips parallel? mine were all over the place before I straightened the one in the photo


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 October, 2020, 10:17:54 PM
The sides should be parallel.  The width of the front section where the quarter light fits is determined by the three cross braces where the captive  nuts are located.  I can't recall if the rest of the opening is the same width or slightly different.   You can probably judge by looking at the width of the major portion, then ease (usually) narrower areas out to match. The gap has to take the following, reading from the inside of the car outwards:  rear surface of inner door top grained trim piece; furry weatherstrip; glass; furry weatherstrip; inner portion of external stainless steel trim strip.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 17 October, 2020, 11:26:25 AM
thanks Norm. The rear flange for the vent fixing was buckled and caused a large crown (horizontally) along the outer lip. Reshaping the flange back to original has lessened the crown and it now matches the other door's slight crown. I have the inner and outer lips parallel. I only have the old trim bits and pieces at this stage (all to be replaced with new), but they seem to fit properly now. Thanks again for the help. Appreciated
Keith


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 20 October, 2020, 09:18:10 AM
I am going to have to make a final choice on the colour of the car soon and rather like the colour in the photo. Can anyone tell me definitely what the name of the colour is please


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Lightweight_911 on 22 October, 2020, 07:28:05 AM
.

That looks like 'Turchese Mereweld' - one of my favourite colours for an S1 Coupe ...

I don't think it was offered on S2 models though.

.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 22 October, 2020, 07:37:51 AM
If metallic (hard to tell) then Blue Jamaica (the light version)??


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 22 October, 2020, 01:36:29 PM
The website where I got the photo from said the colour is Blu Mendoza. I think this is too light for Mendoza. The other photos of the same car all show the colour as an almost cyan colour. Turchese Mereveld is a good call, but an internet search shows as many light green cars as light blue????. Paul Mayo (member of the forum) shows it as a green colour in his extensive colour chart. I cant find the cyan colour on his chart though unfortunately.
The colour in the photo above is not metallic. I think my car was originally Blu Jamaica. As in the inner darker ring in the photo. I didn't realize that there was a lighter version of the Jamaica.
I really like the cyan and would like to use it. I'm not building a concourse car. Would it matter if I used a series 1 colour on a series2 car?


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Lightweight_911 on 22 October, 2020, 02:43:16 PM
.

Looking at the S1 Coupe shot above on a different screen/device it now looks much 'bluer' so my suggestion of Turchese Mereweld was obviously incorrect ...

.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 22 October, 2020, 03:48:19 PM
Hf Azzurro. Really light blue


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Beckerman67 on 23 October, 2020, 04:56:08 AM
 Found this which looks a close match in some of the pictures:
 
 http://www.mrspeedlux.com/1967-fiat-124-sport-coupe/ (http://www.mrspeedlux.com/1967-fiat-124-sport-coupe/)
 


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 23 October, 2020, 07:32:17 AM
You are right Robert - it does look similar in some of the pics. The Turchess (turquoise in Itallian) seems a little green though. Doing a google search for Azzurro (light blue) returns a whole lot of Fulvias in the right colour.
Is there an official Lancia colour chart anywhere that one can look at?
Thanks for all the suggestions so far


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Beckerman67 on 23 October, 2020, 08:08:30 AM

 This any help? - Aussie website!

 https://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/paint_color_reference_lancia (https://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/paint_color_reference_lancia)


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 23 October, 2020, 08:29:13 AM
Azzurro HF   MM 1.346.7215   lecher 8073   Only for 1.6HF S1


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 23 October, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
Wow Robert Thanks. What and amazing site. It looks like it is Azzurro (HF) .
Thanks Tim. I cant want for more than that. Even if it is only for HF. I'm still very tempted to use it
Thanks all for the help :) :) :)


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 04 November, 2020, 12:31:23 PM
I wasn't able to find a comprehensive guide to Fulvia colours. The parts book lists all the names, Lancia numbers and other codes. Nowhere could I find a colour chart with all the colour samples. I googled the different colours and selected paint chips and car colours that seemed right. (when I could find them) I'm not the expert. This is my attempt at making my selection easier and I thought that others might find it helpful. Please let me have comments and suggestions. I'm not sure that this post should be under Fulvia, even though it is about Fulvias, but maybe there is a better place for it. Here is the link
https://www.dropbox.com/home/fulvia%20colours?preview=colours2.pdf


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 16 January, 2021, 09:56:31 AM
The beginning of a new year! lets hope that we'll get this virus under control soon so that we can return to life as we knew it.
I'm putting my front suspension together and am not sure where all the bits and pieces go on the upper control arm bolt. I know, I should have taken more photos :-\. I'm struggling to work it out from the parts book. Is the order in the photo correct. Thats how I put it together on the right hand side. There seems to be a lot of forward and backwards play on the arm. I'd guess 3 or 4mm in the alu. support frame. I have replaced the rubbers with new


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 16 January, 2021, 10:12:50 AM
From your photo it looks like you are missing the inner nylon bush that is inside the rubber silent block??

I do not know of a source to one for one replacement - only a modification kit which is different  https://www.pieces-fulvia.com/kit-silent-blocks-upper-arm-lancia-fulvia-serie-1.htm

BTW the nylon disk should be more accurately shaped...


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 16 January, 2021, 10:14:22 AM
Update

Is your car tubular or pressed upper wishbones. If pressed ignore my post!!


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 16 January, 2021, 10:36:44 AM
Thanks Tim. The arms are the tubular type. The first washer (thin one) at the silent block is a replacement nylon washer. The Pieces modification could be a possibility. The bushes on my lower control arms are the same as those


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: simonpen on 16 January, 2021, 11:10:59 AM
I am confused, I thought S2/S3 cars had 'metalastic. bushes, which I fitted to my S1 in place of the rubber only originals..


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 16 January, 2021, 11:31:46 AM
So S1 upper is a bar with castellated nut at one end and fixed hex with grease nipple at the other (forward facing). The bar rotates on steel tubes In a 2 part (nylon tube and rubber tube) bush at either end. There is a spacer tube in the middle which allows the greasing to get to the back. There is a nylon washer, a dished washer and a strong washer. The whole assembly is done up tight. Obviously poorly maintained and high mileage cars will wear these parts out which is why there is an alternative with basic silent blocks as original parts seem no longer available.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 16 January, 2021, 12:09:01 PM
In putting the factory cars together, it seems as if they used up all the remaining stock of S1 parts on older S2 cars and then changed to the correct S2 pieces. I have one of those cars. There are other S1 parts on mine as well


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 16 January, 2021, 04:05:22 PM
Tim, a thousand thanks. Your mention of the nylon inner silent block has saved the day. I make a point of not throwing old spares away until I have that section correctly re-assembled and today that paid off. I went and inspected the old rubber silent blocs and discovered those pesky nylon silent blocs lurking inside. I removed them, cleaned them up and they all look fine. I have put them in and tightened everything up on the RHS. What a difference. No slop at all. Tight as anything. Thanks again guys for your help. The photo shows all the parts in sequence on the bolt


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 31 January, 2021, 10:09:49 AM
I'm putting the sub-frame back together and wondering how important the torque settings are.
I've been puzzling over pages 11/0010 and 11/0020 in the tech. manual trying to work out which descriptions apply to which fixings. I think I have most of them, but ask for help on the others please.
I have marked up the frame drawing with how I understood the descriptions. Have I got them correct.

Item 5 - is that the single bolt attaching the rear of the 'engine-center-support' to the front cross-member between the alu. uprights?
Item 6 - is that the single bolt attaching the front of the 'gearbox-center-support' to the front cross-member between the alu. uprights?
Item 8 - fixes the 2 steel cross-members to the alu.uprights
Item 9 - attaches the steel leaf-spring housing to the top of the alu. uprights
Item 11 - Is this the engine mount plate to engine. The plate that sits on top of the engine silent-blocks
Item 12 - the 2 bolts that fix the tops of the alu. uprights to the body in the engine bay



Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 29 March, 2021, 04:20:00 PM
She has finally gone off to the body shop for her structural rust repairs. The ones that I'm not comfortable doing. Sub-frame mounting boxes, inner and outer sills, rear wings and the lower patch panels are the main ones. I've asked him to put in a full length membrane between the inner and outer sills. I'm nervous to find out what it is going to cost :o. I'm then going to have to decide what colour blue to paint her.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 16 April, 2021, 10:00:26 AM
While the body is having all the bits and pieces cut out and replaced, I've been having a look at the gearbox.
I removed the drain plugs as per photo 1. The teeth shown are from the 1st gear syncro. Not sure how this happened as the bronze syncro ring is fine. My box is one of the very early 2nd series boxes and the 1st gear has a 48mm ID rather than the later 47mm ID.

Has anyone got spare 1st gear (41 Teeth, Outer 114mm x Inner 48mm) that they would be willing to part with. I haven't been able to find one in SA. see photo 2.
While waiting for the gear ring, I have taken the motor apart and sent all the bits off for proper cleaning. Then it will go to an engine re-builder to sort out anything not up to scratch.

The other photos show the state of the right hand side with the sills removed. no wonder the jack went up at the rear but the car didn't. ::) From what I have read, it seems as if putting a full length membrane, with some strengthening beads/dimples, between the inner and outer sills is the way to go. Is that correct.




Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nthomas1 on 16 April, 2021, 06:52:40 PM

Reference the sill strengtheners, a number of people recommended to me that I install them.  I could see the benefit in improving strength and rigidity for a track or rally car but wasn't sure whether it would be overkill for a road car.  But I decided that as the outer sills were off the car it wouldn't be that much extra effort or cost to fit them, so I did.  There's some discussion and pictures on the topic on pages 2, 3 and 4 of my rebuild thread (Report on Slow S2 Coupe Rebuild).


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 17 April, 2021, 03:11:44 PM
Re gears these 1st and 2nd wear badly as the hub does the damage due to inefficient sychro action. See photo. The teeth on the gear wheel get worn to a point where metal fatigue breaks one tooth and then a domino effect. You need to check the gap of the synchro cone to the gear. 1mm is good. 0.5mm bad. You can sometimes swap the less worn synchro cones but I would replace worn ones with new (not cheap). You need to clean out the sychro hubs as well as these gather muck and pack it centrifugally.... Best bet for a replacement would be Cavalittoas breaking a secondhand box will probably reveal an equally worn 1st gear.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 18 April, 2021, 10:53:26 AM
cheap gear set from Italy. Vendor is OK but this photo is not! Cannot tell if 1st gear is in good useable condition....

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Ingranaggio-per-cambio-5-marce-Lancia-Fulvia-coupe-Berlina/273838982146?hash=item3fc2134402:g:ElEAAOSwX2Jc1COT


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 19 April, 2021, 04:10:45 PM
Thanks Norm. I've had a look at your pages and am going to send them to my guy, if that's okay. Those are some mean looking dimples in your membrane. Are you enjoying your car now that it is finished.
Tim, the person that is helping me with the gearbox seems happy with the syncro rings. We have cleaned them and lapped them. I'm not sure who or what "Cavalittoas" is. Didn't have much luck doing a Google search. I have emailed the eBay supplier. I hope he comes back to me. Thanks again for the help. Appreciated :)


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: frankxhv773t on 19 April, 2021, 06:29:18 PM
Cavalito is; https://www.oldlanciaspares.com/ 

A Turin based historic Lancia parts supplier, possibly the world's premier place for getting parts to keep old Lancias running.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 20 April, 2021, 08:17:17 AM
Thanks Frank. I can't find 1st gear on the site, but have emailed them with a request. All these Lancia resources I didn't know about. Fantastic - thanks again

Another thought?
would it be possible to machine a 47mm ID gear ring. Taking it to 48mm ID or is the material too hard?


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 21 April, 2021, 08:41:59 AM
I have just had a whole lot of pieces aquablasted and they have come back beautiful, Like new. Included were the seat frames and rails and the jack. Please could someone tell me how the frames and rails should be treated/coated before they rust. Is there a specific blue code for the jack or is it just royal blue


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 25 May, 2021, 04:39:54 PM
Thanks Frank. I can't find 1st gear on the site, but have emailed them with a request. All these Lancia resources I didn't know about. Fantastic - thanks again

Another thought?
would it be possible to machine a 47mm ID gear ring. Taking it to 48mm ID or is the material too hard?
Keith have you sorted this yet? I am perplexed as to 48mm i/d as there is only one hub the gear sits on in the parts book. I measured a set today at 47mm....


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 07 June, 2021, 01:25:37 PM
Sorry Tim. Ive only seen your post now. Apparently, the early series 2 boxes had a 48mm shaft. Later it was changed to 47mm. I got a 47mm gear from Lancia here in ZA and took it to a gear engineering shop. They bored it out to 48mm for me. He said he was pretty sure that the 'case hardening' was thick enough and the gear should be good. Hope so. I hope to have it fitted back in the box one of these days soon


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 07 June, 2021, 02:38:59 PM
Progress at the body shop.
1st Photo shows the drivers inner and outer sills, full length membrane (between the two) and the jacking points welded in and primed. the 2nd photo is the strengthening box we place inside the sills above the jacking points and the third is the cleanup of the surface rust and accident repair on the drivers rear quarter panel. The inner panel was pretty mangled, but Dean has managed to sort it out so that the trim-card next to the back seat now fits properly. The driver's side might even be complete this week.
The car came with a replacement engine (818.302), running, in the car and the original one (818.303) in pieces. I'll be fitting the 303 again, so it will be original. The engine is at the re-builders to have the machining etc. done. The original block had been re-sleeved but not honed. It has now been honed. We managed to reuse the pistons but have fitted new rings. The crank was re-ground for the new main bearings. I have had the valves and guides replaced. Not one of the 4 rocker shafts was serviceable, so have replaced those. The camshafts were fine and so were most of the rockers.
When I get the lot back I can refit the head and work out the timing. I've looked at the manual and, not being a mechanical genius, feel that I am going to have to read it again, a couple of times, to understand what they are trying to tell me. A complete new gasket set is waiting to be fitted. There is very little of the car with me here at home. I'm really scratching about for things to do at the moment. Oh well, I suppose I'll have to start re-furbishing the stainless steel trim and bumpers next.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 07 June, 2021, 04:02:25 PM
Sorry Tim. Ive only seen your post now. Apparently, the early series 2 boxes had a 48mm shaft. Later it was changed to 47mm. I got a 47mm gear from Lancia here in ZA and took it to a gear engineering shop. They bored it out to 48mm for me. He said he was pretty sure that the 'case hardening' was thick enough and the gear should be good. Hope so. I hope to have it fitted back in the box one of these days soon
Good to hear.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 28 June, 2021, 03:29:40 PM
My seat hinges were in such a bad state that taking them apart and possibly destroying them and having to buy others didn't really matter. They need to come apart so that they can be re-chromed.
Take lots of photos of the process - helpful sorting the order of rebuilding. There are lots of washers and spacers. The hinge with the release lever is more complicated than the one without the lever. Taking them apart is a very similar process
I removed the inner cover and grabbed the hooked end of the spiral spring (photo 1) with pliers and lifted it away from the stop. There isn't much tension in the spring in this position so not as scary as it might seem.  After removing the outer black plastic centre cover, I ground the peening off of the central shaft with my Dremel, just enough so that I could remove the cupped washer and then the larger hinge leaf. See 2nd photo also showing how I drilled and tapped a hole so that I could bolt it all back together later. The cage that holds the bush and rubber for the transfer shaft between the hinges needs to have the rivets drilled so that can be removed. Take lots of photos of the position of all the bits and pieces. The hinge with the release handle needs to have the rivet end ground off of the inside so that it can be removed.  I was able to leave the second lever attached for the chroming process as it is covered by the outer hinge leaf and doesn't need to be perfect. Put the release lever in a vice and gently tap the plastic ball with a hammer to remove it.
The re assembly is fairly easy if you have taken enough photos. The cage for the transfer shaft bush needs to be riveted back in place.(photo 1) Photo 3 shows the order of the bits for the non-lever hinge.  Add grease to all of the moving parts including the gears in both halves.  I also pressed grease into the spiral spring as it seems to rub on itself in places when the hinges operate. There is a punched mark, in photo 1, on the top LHS of the transfer shaft drive. I don’t think it makes any difference where the mark is, as long as both hinges in a pair have their marks facing in the same direction. This lets the transfer shaft slide onto both drives without changing the angle of one hinge. Both hinges have to be in the fully forward position. Replace the inner protection cover.
The above assembly steps must be used again on the release lever hinge, but add the following as well. All the pieces for the hinge are shown in order of assembly in photo 4.  The release lever needs to be manoeuvred into position under the second lever. See photo 5.   5 also shows the final positions of the workings. The release lever pivot had the remaining piece of rivet ground off. I drilled and tapped right through the pivot to take a bolt and fender washer from the inside. Remember the cup washer under the head of the pivot. I peened the end of the bolt once installed to keep it in place. Photo 6. After greasing everything, the two halves can go back together. Remember to align the punched mark on the end of the transfer shaft drive the same way as the other hinge.  Photo 7 shows the bolt and fender washer to hold the whole lot together. There is a small protrusion inside the black plastic centre cap that I needed to remove to enable the cover to fit properly. The small spring goes between the small hole in the top RHS of photo 5 to the punched eye in the outer hinge leaf. The bigger spring’s small side goes over the pin on the end of the release lever and the larger end over the notched tang on the inside of the inner leaf.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: davidwheeler on 29 June, 2021, 08:40:25 PM
I need to tackle this job.  Many thanks for the info!


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 29 July, 2021, 11:04:05 AM
I am re-assembling my engine and am about to install the head. I have laid the head gasket on top of the block and noticed that the 3 holes marked in the photo don't line up exactly with the holes in the block. there are others that are completely covered. The old gasket is the same so I presume this is not a fault with the gasket.
My question is, should I open these holes so that they are the same size as the holes in the block. Wouldn't this open the waterways up for more efficient cooling?


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 29 July, 2021, 02:48:12 PM
I am re-assembling my engine and am about to install the head. I have laid the head gasket on top of the block and noticed that the 3 holes marked in the photo don't line up exactly with the holes in the block. there are others that are completely covered. The old gasket is the same so I presume this is not a fault with the gasket.
My question is, should I open these holes so that they are the same size as the holes in the block. Wouldn't this open the waterways up for more efficient cooling?
I have heard (and I believe it true) that the gasket is designed like that to regulate the block temperature. I know one member who has fitted a new gasket with holes opened up to match. I do not know if he is experiencing and colder running issues. Typically he rear cylinder will always run hotter...


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nistri on 29 July, 2021, 04:09:30 PM
the general advice is to keep the gasket as it is, Andrea


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 30 July, 2021, 07:30:57 AM
Thanks very much. It seems as if it should stay as it is then - that's what I'll do
The next trick is to understand setting the timing from the manual - today's task :)


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 30 July, 2021, 01:05:10 PM
While others may disagree. I always fit these grey laminated head gaskets dry.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 31 July, 2021, 02:39:02 PM
reading and re-reading the valve timing sections in the S1 and S2 manuals plus finding info on the web about the 2.2mm method has only confused me more. I tried the forum but didn't have any success. Let me put this down in words so someone can tell me where I am going wrong.
I spent half an hour making a puller for the dowels after discovering that they are tapped with an M3 thread down the center. Worth the time as I have already messed one dowel up by trying to remove it with pliers. see photo
I'll work from the S2 manual page 13 bottom
1.  I closed #1 inlet valve and set the clearance to 0.15 + 0.03
2.  I turned the engine until #1 exhaust is closed and set the clearance to 0.25 + 0.03
3.  I lined up the two cam marks with their markers on the front cam hold-downs. The flywheel "0" is also lined up with the crank mark 1|4.  #1 intake is about to open and the exhaust is almost closed.
4.  I rotate the engine backwards (taking play into account)
5.  Rotate the engine forwards until the 0.03 feeler is difficult to remove from #1 inlet
6.  Remove the dowel from the inlet sprocket
7.  here the manual asks for the rotation of the flywheel until the removal of the 0.03 (with difficulty) from the exhaust side. But the exhaust valve is not full closed at this stage so there is no gap. Should I be rotating the engine forward until the valve is closed. Putting in the feeler and rotating backwards until the valve is open, then forward again until it is difficult to remove or should the cam do a full rotation until the feeler is difficult to remove.
8.  it then says remove the exhaust sprocket's dowel.
9.  Next turn the flywheel until "0" lines up on the crank case mark.
10. fit both dowels and tighten the set-screws

I'm sure the Vernier adjustment is superb, if you understand it
Am I now ready to go after this. Setting all of the valves to the spec with each valve in the closed position

Thanks in advance for your help


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nistri on 31 July, 2021, 04:33:52 PM
Timing the valves of the Fulvia engine is quite complicated and confusing, and it should not undertaken unless one is confident to know what he is doing. Personally I never used the Lancia manual method and always relied on the 2.2 mm method that I learned from Harry Manning. He actually used to sell these bespoke feeler gauges and of course the accuracy of timing depends on how accurate the gauge is. Basically the method relies on the maximum valve lift that is correct at 2.2 mm ONLY for 818.303 engines. This is important.

Assuming the camshafts, rockershafts, etc are all correctly refitted, the tappets screws of all valves must be wound fully inside the tappets. Then adjust valve clearance for inlet and outlet valves of cylinder 1 for maximum lift (2.2 mm) i.e. back of cylinder 1 cam lobes after turning (by hand) both camshafts in such position. Subsequently, turn by hand intake camshaft clockwise and exhaust camshaft anticlockwise until camshaft marks are aligned. If OK so far, there must be no free play for both valves of cylinder 1. Chain can now be fitted (if not done earlier) to both camshafts with its tensioner spring slackened.
Turn the engine until cylinder 1 is at top dead center (0 on the flywheel flange with 1/4 on the bellhousing) and make sure it is indeed at TDC. Easy to make mistakes here: I use a whistle fitted to the plug hole to signal TDC.
Turn again the engine one full revolution very slowly and check that tappet 1 play starts disappearing as flywheel 0 mark approaches. At 0 there should be no free play and as soon as 0 is passed slowly, there should free play for the exhaust 1 tappet. Retension the tensioner, turn the engine and recheck as above.

If these conditions are not attained for example on the intake camshaft, slacken the tensioner, don't shift the camshaft position and after lifting the chain by hand and carefully removing the intake sprocket wheel (and dowel if present), move it one or two teeth clockwise (advance) or anticlockwise (retard) for setting the intake timing correctly and refit it loose. Retension the tensioner and see if timing is now correct after turning the engine.
The procedure is essentially the same for the exhaust camshafts. If OK, set all valve clearances as per book (0.15 inlet, 0.25 outlet)

If the timing is correct, sprocket bolts can be torqued up and blocked with their locking tabs. It is very important to note that although working with cylinder 1, the distributor must be fitted with rotor firing cylinder 4.

The final check for everything done properly is:
rotor arm firing cylinder 4, timing marks aligned with marks on the camshaft front supports,
piston number 4 at TDC, flywheel zero aligned with 1/4 mark on the bellhousing, free play on inlet and outlet valves of cylinder 4.
I hope this helps. With Harry's method we  never had any problems for a large number of 303 engines over nearly 40 years, Andrea



Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: davidwheeler on 01 August, 2021, 09:27:54 AM
Brilliant.  I have taken the liberty of posting this in the technical information only thread.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 01 August, 2021, 11:34:26 AM
Hi Andrea. Many thanks for putting this procedure in a post. I think I have now got the timing sorted.
I have a query or uncertainty.
I set up the three timing marks, with the chain sprockets and dowels all in place. There was free play on the intake rocker. Earlier in the post you said that there shouldn't be any.
To remedy that I go to your paragraph starting :- "If these conditions are not attained for example on the intake......" (The play was on the intake.)
You continue to say that in this case, one must loosen the intake sprocket. Didn't you mean the outlet sprocket.  Then turn the engine until the intake has no free play. ( the outlet cam remains stationery).
That is what I needed to do to remove the free play in the inlet.
Am I correct?
I then set the valve clearances to spec
Have I missed something


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nistri on 01 August, 2021, 04:29:27 PM
Hi Keith, very good to know you have sorted out the valve timing.
Concerning your query: the lack of free play on either cylinder 1 valve should be noted when you move them by hand after setting the 2.2. valve gap on back of cam. THis is what I wrote: "turn by hand intake camshaft clockwise and exhaust camshaft anticlockwise until camshaft marks are aligned. If OK so far, there must be no free play for both valves of cylinder 1."
Thus, when you write "To remedy that I go to your paragraph starting :- "If these conditions are not attained for example on the intake......" (The play was on the intake.)
You continue to say that in this case, one must loosen the intake sprocket. Didn't you mean the outlet sprocket.  Then turn the engine until the intake has no free play. ( the outlet cam remains stationery)." No, I meant the intake sprocket. I hope this clarifies the issue. Don't underestimate the possibility that an initial bit of free play on one of cylinder 1 valves might be due to wear of the camshafts/rockers.

Please always check carefully at the end of your procedure the final conditions I indicated "rotor arm firing cylinder 4, timing marks aligned with marks on the camshaft front supports,
piston number 4 at TDC, flywheel zero aligned with 1/4 mark on the bellhousing, free play on inlet and outlet valves of cylinder 4." If these conditions are not applied, don't start the engine and go back to redo the timing. Andrea


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 01 August, 2021, 05:21:24 PM
For what it is worth I set cams up with a crankshaft pulley sized 360 degree protractor and a dial test indicator. I look for MOP and set the tappets on #1 to .4mm for reading opening and closing. MOP is midway between.

Depending on the cam you then adjust to the cam's MOP (this can be found in Lancia specifications by using the technical information of the relevant cam's opening and closing in the manual.

As Andrea noted the 2.2mm method is only relevant to the 303 and later 540 engines.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nistri on 02 August, 2021, 06:07:29 AM
Hi Tim, your method is very good but best applied when the engine is out of the car, Andrea


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 02 August, 2021, 06:54:30 AM
Hi Tim, your method is very good but best applied when the engine is out of the car, Andrea
agreed but still possible with engine in the car.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 02 August, 2021, 07:52:44 AM
Andrea. Thank you very much. I have checked your final conditions and they are correct. The three timing marks line up. #4 is at TDC and there is slight play on both #4 rockers. The distributor isn't in at the moment, but I'll make sure to fit it so that #4 is firing. I hope that all is now fine. Thanks again


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 02 August, 2021, 07:58:03 AM
Tim. Thanks for your method. Please excuse my inexperience, but what does MOP stand for. The closest I could get to was Max Output Power. I don't think that is what you mean.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 02 August, 2021, 09:01:48 AM
Tim. Thanks for your method. Please excuse my inexperience, but what does MOP stand for. The closest I could get to was Max Output Power. I don't think that is what you mean.
Max opening point. Difficult to measure directly hence take half way between opening and closing (assumes symmetrical cams which Lancia Fulvia are). Determining true TDC is also critical. Normally OK but if a different flywheel has been fitted....


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nistri on 02 August, 2021, 09:38:07 AM
Andrea. Thank you very much. I have checked your final conditions and they are correct. The three timing marks line up. #4 is at TDC and there is slight play on both #4 rockers. The distributor isn't in at the moment, but I'll make sure to fit it so that #4 is firing. I hope that all is now fine. Thanks again

Good to know everything is fine. While the distributor is out, it may be a good time to service it. Measure with a feeler gauge the axial play near its bottom gear: it should be 0.1 mm. If not so, remove the rotor arm, remove the rollpin at the shaft bottom, drift out the shaft and adjust free play with extra shims as required (these have a fairly odd shape but can be made by a machine shop). Excessive play on the shaft is one important cause of mediocre performance and it is very common on all Fulvia models. The diagnosis is readily made by checking static ignition timing and noting that it is different for cylinder 1 and 4, plus pulling up and down the rotor arm generates a clear clicking noise. The cause of shaft wear is very simple: the shaft should be often lubricated with engine oil through the purpose made hole in the distributor baseplate. When the distributor is fitted to the engine, the hole usually (though not always) marked "olio" is found near the shaft in the direction of the air filter. In my experience this is the most frequently overlooked item during regular maintenance.
If your valve timing is right, you don't want an erratic ignition timing. Andrea


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 02 August, 2021, 02:35:41 PM
Thanks for clearing MOP up for me Tim. I'll check my setting so far with your method. Just to re-assure myself that I have done it right.

Andrea. Thanks again for the advice, especially checking the distributor. It has been added to my list. I imagine, one of these days, my list will start reducing instead of expanding :) ;)

Thanks again everyone


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 07 September, 2021, 12:25:51 PM
I have had other prioritys recently but I am now finally confident that I have the timing correct. All three timing marks line up and there is play on both inlet and exhaust valves of #4.Thanks everyone for all your help. The only thing that worries me is that when I turn the engine (spanner on crank nut) there are (the only way I can describe them) "spring" noises. A kind of 'ping' as the valve springs compress. Is this normal. Will the noises go away when everything is properly oiled by the running engine.

The photo is of the engine as she looks now. ready to go into the sub-frame when I get the car back from the body shop


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 07 September, 2021, 12:54:20 PM
Both sills, inner and outer, have been replaced along with the strengthening membrane between them and the sub-frame mount boxes. The right rear wing is done as well as the four lower patch panels that frame the doors on the four wings. All work inside and out has been coated with epoxy primer as far as they were able - photo 1.
Next is the passenger 'C' pillar above the rear wheel arch, inside the boot, the boot gutter, both visible in photo 2 and what is left of the lower parcel shelf photo 3.

I think I'll be going Lancia Blu for the body with tan leather interior.

What happens in the boot and engine bay? Some photos show both painted black, but others show them as body colour.
How did they come from the factory? (probably doesn't make much difference if going for Lancia Blu)
What are the recommendations for the under side. I have seen body colour. I have seen black rubberized paint and apparently you could even go with body colour over the rubber protection paint. In your group experience, What is recommended.
Just for interest sake, why is the speaker hole in the parcel shelf not a complete oval?


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 07 September, 2021, 02:21:50 PM
Re painting the engine bay and cabin are body colour with a flash coat of satin black on the central box section / handbrake area. Boot is satin black. Underside can be body colour then coated with a black rubberised protection (or just leave in primer and the protect.

Re your engine going twang I believe your valves maybe catching the sides of the cutouts on the pistons. Is everything standard or do you have oversized valves? I had this on an engine I was building. Very annoying as the engine has to be stripped to get to the piston cut outs. With care these can be opened up in situ.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 08 September, 2021, 07:52:54 AM
Thanks Tim. That's the paint sorted. I appreciate the info.
I had a 818.302 engine in the car when I bought it. The original 818.303 engine also came with the car, but in pieces. I have rebuilt the 303 as the block had been sleeved to original spec and the 303 head has bigger valves than the 302 (more efficient apparently). I had to mix the pistons to get a good set. Some from the 302 and others from the 303. My understanding was that the 302 pistons were the same as the 303. So that should be fine.

Is there any info on minimum head thickness. Maybe the head has been skimmed too many times.

I did notice that the valve cutout on one of the pistons was slightly damaged, but was told that it was acceptable I think it was #4 cylinder (top left in the photo). I have been uneasy about the timing and redone it using all the methods that you all posted on the forum, but still this "ping/twang" noise persisted. I'm wondering if I should take it apart and check everything again.
Will I be able to reuse the head gasket, which has never been run before


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: davidwheeler on 09 September, 2021, 08:44:26 AM
I think I would enlarge the round holes to fit.  The oval is near enough.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: nistri on 09 September, 2021, 12:07:32 PM
Just a thought: the valve timing can be out if you timed the system for a 303 engine and you have a 302 engine. Note that the max valve lift is substantially different in these two cases, Andrea


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 09 September, 2021, 02:33:47 PM
Hate to say it but the 303 and 302 pistons have subtly different domes with 303 having higher compression ratios. I think you will need to go through it all again.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 10 September, 2021, 04:15:57 PM
Success and happiness ;D. I have got rid of the engine noise (twang). I got down on my knees (no, not to pray) to listen to at the sump while I turned the motor. Sure enough it seemed to come from there. On taking the sump off I found that the 6 lock plates that hold the crank casing where making the knocking sound. I had bent the tabs up against the bolt faces, but I hadn't squeezed the plates completely up to the housing sides. Hey presto! the noise has gone
Andrea - the engine is all 303
Tim - If there are a combo of 303 and 302 pistons, does that mean that the compression on the 302 pistons will be lower than the others. Is that a problem, or are there other things that I'm missing


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 10 September, 2021, 08:03:33 PM
Tim - If there are a combo of 303 and 302 pistons, does that mean that the compression on the 302 pistons will be lower than the others. Is that a problem, or are there other things that I'm missing
not ideal! 302 engines are 9.0 cr and 303 are 9.5 due to piston crown.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 15 September, 2021, 08:43:17 AM
Hi Tim. Sorry for only replying now. I don't seem to get email notifications anymore.
How bad will it be running the engine like this and will it cause damage. Will it just have slightly less power?


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: lancialulu on 15 September, 2021, 02:11:10 PM
I cannot say definitively yes to your questions but I would recommend you  build it with the correct set of pistons.


Title: Re: '72 Fulvia rebuild
Post by: Keithver on 19 October, 2021, 08:01:53 AM
Very slow process at the body shop as he works on the car when he has a chance. There is little for me to do until the body comes back finished. He has repaired the passenger side 'C' pillar rust (see photo) and wants to fit the rear screen to make sure all is lined up before he completes this section. When I delivered the screen to them I noticed that it has a slight dish to it. How is it fitted correctly. Dish in or dish out. I'm sure it doesn't make a difference right now, but would like it correct for final fitting.

Another item. I wanted to renew pieces of the wiring and presumed that the unmarked wire sizes on the wiring diagram would be 1mm. After Buying the 1mm and comparing it to the original, it seems as if the original is 1,5mm. Is this correct. (Maybe the plastic coating on the new wire has just got thinner over the years.) Should the minimum wire size be 1,5mm.

Thanks again for all the help so far