Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Ypsilon, Musa and Y10 => Topic started by: Duncan23 on 17 August, 2020, 03:01:23 PM



Title: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 17 August, 2020, 03:01:23 PM
Hi
I thought I'd introduce myself and this car. I had a few Lancias in the past - a couple of Beta projects that never made it to the road and a Dedra Turbo that I loved and sold on for a more economical daily. After a few years with just a modern car I found myself with the time and space for a project, something that would fit in the (smallish single) garage and I could improve, but wasn't too decrepit or too precious to work on.
Hence I bought this Y10 from an advert on this website a couple of weeks ago. It's a 1993 GTie in LHD, I think it was originally bought in Brussels, then it went to Cyprus and finally it came over here a couple of years ago. While in Cyprus it had aftermarket air-con installed - it's been partially removed, but the dashboard is a bit of a mess (I think part of it was cut about and it's cracking in places), and the associated wiring could do with being removed. It drives OK, though it's not been used much, so it could do with the cobwebs being blown out and some fresh fuel, and I don't see much rust when poking around underneath. The paintwork is not great - part of it has clearly been resprayed at some point in the past, the roof is a bit faded, and the bonnet has some cracks showing the old paint (the spare wheel has a 175 70 R13 tyre and apparently has caused some marks on the bonnet when someone tried to shut it). The sides aren't too bad, but the bumpers have some black paint flaking (again, showing what is presumably the original underneath). This is it, shortly after being washed last weekend:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50237257337_546fca866b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxi5ng)2020-08-17_03-44-00 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxi5ng)

The seats are wearing covers because the base (at least on the drivers side) is quite frayed, and the carpet and alcantara are an indeterminate grubby colour, so I need to give the interior a good clean before I do anything else in there. At some point (maybe this winter) I shall have to take much of it apart and reinforce it or replace the bits that are cracked. Obviously the main dash panel and probably the central one with the switches and heater vents are different, but I assume the various hinged pieces are the same, just switched from left to right?

I could do with getting my hands on a workshop manual or similar - does the club have one that can be borrowed or sections thereof photocopied?
I shall post more updates when I've had a chance to give it a proper once over and take a bunch of photos (though I also need to finish clearing up the garage so it has somewhere to live). The plan is to make it as usable and enjoyable as possible, without spending too much money or focusing too hard on originality (it'll never be a concours car, and I wouldn't want one), and to have something to tinker with as and when I get the time.
Thanks
Duncan


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: lancialulu on 17 August, 2020, 05:12:41 PM
Hi Duncan

Welcome - Nice Y10GTie. Contact Chris Hopkins - librarian for workshop manual and or Frank Tierney who is the font of all things Y10!

Additionally the club has quite a few special tools for hire for this model. I am the contact. You can see a list of tools in the online library.

Tim


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 17 August, 2020, 07:44:33 PM
Welcome to the Y10 fold. I am the font of some knowledge but only on Y10 Fire, Trevor Nicosia is the man for Y10s having had upwards of 30 of them.

Cracked dashboards are a problem and there isn't really a fix unless you can find a second hand one in good condition. It's quite a job to swap one which is why I am living with the crack in mine. I do have pictures of what's behind the dash if you do decide to do something about it. As far as I know bumpers should be bare plastic so if you have flaking paint it's probably been done to cover up fading of the plastic. I use Maguires black trim detailer to good effect to keep my bumpers black. I think your bumpers might be Y10 Turbo which may be worth a few quid with that red insert.

One of the joys of Y10s is that parts are cheap and lots of mechanical and electrical bits are still available new. I have dismantled a couple so have some spares and am always willing to help get another Y10 fixed up.

Where abouts are you located?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 18 August, 2020, 07:32:00 AM
I'm in Oxford.  In theory there's a local meeting on Thursday, but I don't know if it's on (or if I can go). I see it splits with the Berkshire group - I'll contact Chris Hopkins for the workshop manual and also to find out about that meet. :)

When I talk about dashboard cracks, I'm talking about cracks in how it is assembled, rather than the cosmetic ones I had on my old 924.  Specifically, if you push any of the buttons in the central part of the dash (eg the fog lights), the whole button set moves inside the dashboard. I'm also missing the alcantara cover for the stereo, and I think the aircon install basically wrecked the glovebox.
Just poking around on eBay I'd noticed that there were quite a few spares available new, and also that they are really cheap! :) It's a nice surprise after my last classic (a Porsche 924 Turbo), where most stuff was available, but everything cost a fortune!

Thanks
Duncan


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: nyssa7 on 18 August, 2020, 07:44:16 AM
Not sure from that angle whether the bumpers re from a Turbo, need ring and rear views to check the front has the additional cooling slots and the rear has what looks like a spoiler for going very fast backwards 😂

But I donít live far from you, Princes Risborough, and have a garage full of odds and ends Y10


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 18 August, 2020, 08:07:50 AM
Front and rear bumpers:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50239223653_99f32177b7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxt9Tg)IMG_20200818_085706 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxt9Tg) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50240085602_3f088b26b6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxxz7s)IMG_20200818_085717 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxxz7s) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

And the interior - all the gaps and crazy angles show what needs sorting.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50240085822_ea61968ee0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxxzbf)IMG_20200818_085734 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxxzbf) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50239223398_6bd847641c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxt9NS)IMG_20200818_085747 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxt9NS) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50240085522_082272ec8f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxxz65)IMG_20200818_085742 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxxz65) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

I have a folder full of history as well, but it's a mix of French, Greek (I think), and English. I need to go through it and put it in chronological order, but I'm not sure it's going to tell me anything new. Oh, and it came with a nice shiny grille, so I might put that on instead of the current peeling one. Don't know if I can swap the GT badge over though.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 18 August, 2020, 10:05:24 AM
It looks like it's not a turbo bumper then, I checked my pictures and could only see the red insert on turbos but specifications vary so much. As I said, nyssa7 (Trevor) is the man with the real knowledge.



Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: fay66 on 18 August, 2020, 10:14:37 AM
It looks like it's not a turbo bumper then, I checked my pictures and could only see the red insert on turbos but specifications vary so much. As I said, nyssa7 (Trevor) is the man with the real knowledge.


There were no red stripes in the bumper of my 1989 GTie,.
Dash besides being Lhd is different on the late Y10's.
Spare wheel should be a steel wheel, and as someone found out, an alloy wheel doesn't fit!
I tried to do similar by putting an alloy wheel in the spare wheel well on my Delta HF turbo to find it would only fit if deflated ::)
Brian
8227


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: nyssa7 on 19 August, 2020, 06:08:29 AM
Looks like GTie spot lights so guess someone has adde red bits, are they painted? Turbo has ďwireĒ red stripes added to the plastic. And rear upper not from a Turbo either

Reckon when the air con was working the passenger would have frozen 😂


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 19 August, 2020, 12:35:23 PM
I'm not sure if the bumpers have the red painted on - it's quite possible given the black is mostly paint.
I figured the first thing to look at on the inside is the aircon area. I also wanted to see what the alcantara looks like when cleaned up a little (still dark grey it turns out). So I got the piece of dash around the aircon unit, and it just came off in my hand - it wasn't attached at all! It looks like the plastic around the glovebox area has just been cut apart - could someone post a picture of what this should look like (with the glovebox open)?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50243616098_89a00069e7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxREB5)2020-08-19_01-20-51 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxREB5) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
I'm guessing I'm going to have to chase up this piece of the dash with a continental breaker, if it's not part of the whole moulded unit (in which case maybe I need a whole dashboard?). :(
This looks like the door I have a chopped up version of: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Door-Dashboard-Instrument-Lancia-Y10-Original-182278360/174113563163?fits=Model%3AY10&hash=item2889fa221b:g:mVQAAOSwpUtd5oJx I wonder if the UK version is the same door?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 19 August, 2020, 12:58:29 PM
I've taken some pictures of my spare dashboard which probably gives you the best view of the structure. The supports either side of the central air vent are notoriously weak so I have done a close up of that bit. I've done the actual glove box from above and below too.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 19 August, 2020, 01:05:02 PM
Thank you Frank - that's amazingly useful.
Sadly, it confirms my fears - some of the plastic that has been chopped out is part of the main moulded dashboard structure. :( I'll have to get the aircon unit out and see what's left - with any luck I can make a few steel brackets up that will allow a glovebox panel to cover the gaping hole (and maybe a small bit of alloy sheet to provide the box bit). On the bright side - if I can do all that relatively well, my new dashboard will be stiffer and sturdier than most! :) 


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 19 August, 2020, 06:27:18 PM
I removed the aircon unit - it left a giant hole, a strange bracket and an assortment of wiring.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50244681363_5592e131f2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxX8gH)2020-08-19_07-16-40 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxX8gH) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

Also, the alcantara piece above the ashtray is completely floating, and I've no idea what the dial mounted in it is for (the toggle switch below that is an extra fan switch to help with cooling in traffic). Typical that the most sturdy thing in the entire dashboard is the ashtray (and I don't smoke)!

I will need to fabricate something or find myself another dashboard. Has anyone gone all motorsport and replaced the thing with a flocked aluminium panel?
I also need to work out where all that wiring belongs (and which bits are unnecessary).  I must get around to sorting out a shop manual.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 19 August, 2020, 07:45:37 PM
There is a workshop manual just come up on e-bay. It says Volume 2 but probably has a lot of the later models stuff relevant to your car.

On the RHD car the fuse box is behind and below the glove box and would fit in a bracket like that. Which leads to the question of where is your fuse box?

The panel above the ashtray is where the electric window switches were on earlier models. Might the knob be something to do with the air-con as the actual unit didn't seem to have much by way of controls on it?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: fay66 on 19 August, 2020, 09:01:42 PM
There is a workshop manual just come up on e-bay. It says Volume 2 but probably has a lot of the later models stuff relevant to your car.

On the RHD car the fuse box is behind and below the glove box and would fit in a bracket like that. Which leads to the question of where is your fuse box?

The panel above the ashtray is where the electric window switches were on earlier models. Might the knob be something to do with the air-con as the actual unit didn't seem to have much by way of controls on it?
Think the series 2 manual only has the items changed with this model, but for everything else you still need the series 1 manual for everything else.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 19 August, 2020, 10:14:09 PM
Good point on the fuse box - maybe that's why there's so much wiring and relays in that area. There wasn't a box for them to fit into though. Maybe I have one in my spares bag - will have to check.  I assume this is what it should look like? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LANCIA-Y10-AUTOBIANCHI-1993-1-1-37KW-3P-SCATOLA-CENTRALINA-FUSIBILI-7645203/233207698033?hash=item364c431271:g:nj0AAOSwdwlcwHsv That's fora  1.1 I guess the manual is the only way of finding out whether the GTie one is different.

And speaking of the manual, I assume this is the one? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lancia-Y10-workshop-manual-for-2nd-series-cars-Fire-1100-and-1300cc/324266472862?hash=item4b7fc9b59e:g:Q-AAAOSw8wZfCGwK
It sounds like it would have useful information about the engine, and pertinent to my current questions, the electrics. It seems that Omicron might also have one if this webpage is accurate https://www.omicron.uk.com/parts/books-and-manuals/
I've emailed Chris Hopkins, so hopefully the library can help me out, but it's probably a good idea to get one of my own if it is a sensible price...


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 20 August, 2020, 12:33:53 PM
So does your car not have a fuse box somewhere? I'd be surprised if it didn't. The one on e-bay looks as I'd expect it to but don't know if it varied between models. It would be worth asking on here for parts you need before spending out loads on e-bay. I certainly wouldn't charge you £50 for a fuse box. I'm about to go away for 10 days so let's have a chat when I am back in circulation.

Brian, my Volume 2 workshop manual had masses of overlap with Volume 1 so it is well worthwhile having.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 20 August, 2020, 12:47:12 PM
I had a quick look and there's a bunch of relays (but only 1 or 2 fuses) attached to the back of that bracket. You can see them here (the camera is basically on the floor at the base of the bulkhead):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50248036277_d6f035794f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jyfjz4)2020-08-20_01-40-48 (https://flic.kr/p/2jyfjz4) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
Not the most flattering photo! :)

I haven't had a chance to look for where the fuses live yet, or to work out what the relays lying around on the floor do. I should get some time on the weekend to both drive it around a bit and also do some digging into what is where (hopefully the weather will be kind). If it's a reasonable price, I'll buy that eBay manual. I'm hoping to avoid buying a load of expensive parts from Italy, so I'll definitely be in touch with you and Trevor before I go down that route. :) Thanks for all your help so far.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 20 August, 2020, 06:01:22 PM
I think you'll find the fuse box is on the left under the small glove box (Same side as a RHD car) and your bracket is for all those relays to clip into to keep them tidy.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 21 August, 2020, 06:25:21 PM
Yes, the fuse box is there under the little glovebox. There's definitely some non standard wiring running from it, so I guess I should investigate where that goes soon.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 22 August, 2020, 03:40:21 PM
I decided I would clean the interior out and generally make it a bit nicer today, so I vacuumed it and cleaned the carpet, all the seats and the door cards. Would the carpet have originally been black?  It looks like it under the mats in the boot, but the front seat floors are really pale:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50255214841_f52ac168e0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jyT7vp)IMG_20200822_131154 (https://flic.kr/p/2jyT7vp) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
I have some carpet dye kicking around from when I dyed my 924 carpets, so if it should be black, I'll have a go with that. The carpet in the passenger side is really fluffy too, so I'll have to smooth that off a bit.

The drivers seat has splits in it, so I'll leave the cover on until I can do something with that, but the other seats cleaned up nicely, and they are so much nicer than those boy racer style covers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50255398492_22e10cca94_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jyU46N)IMG_20200822_131250 (https://flic.kr/p/2jyU46N) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

You can see how much they have faded in this picture:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50255398642_4a948c5b56_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jyU49o)IMG_20200822_131402 (https://flic.kr/p/2jyU49o) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

I'm going to take it for a little blast tomorrow if I get a chance. I had a bit of a heart stopping moment when neither of the keys would open the fuel filler cap, but it was just stuck, and it worked in the end (little key). So it could do with a drive and then a refill - I assume super unleaded is probably a good idea in these things?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: nyssa7 on 23 August, 2020, 09:37:41 AM
Normal unleaded petrol is fine, super would be a waste. GTie very unstressed but plenty of power in a car that weighs in ounces, so 40mpg still the norm when not being silly

Canít answer about the carpets, only seen those seats on lefties and not sure what carpets were used to match


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: mikeC on 23 August, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
I have owned several cars (not Lancias) over the years with original black carpets that have bleached to a light beige/buff colour. Those look like original carpets to me, so your idea of re-dying them sounds good.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 23 August, 2020, 11:20:02 AM
Thanks Mike, I think that's probably the best plan. And it's free as well. :)

I've just been out for a quick blast, and it's so much fun. The pedals are really close together which took a little getting used to, and every time I went over a sharp edged bump the dashboard felt like it was going to fall off, but it just wants you to throw it around corners, and while the steering is heavy at low speed it's great when you are on the move. Would be nice if I could see the speedo (or the rev counter) through the steering wheel, but it's all kph anyway, so it's not a huge amount of use!

Putting the window down gave me quite a strong whiff of petrol - I guess that's got to go above the interior on the list of things to fix. Might just be the exhaust - if I remember properly it was an advisory on the last couple of MOTs. Will have to investigate when I next get half an hour...


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 23 August, 2020, 02:15:21 PM
Canít answer about the carpets, only seen those seats on lefties and not sure what carpets were used to match
That's a shame, I was hoping that these were standard GTie seats and I might be able to find another drivers seat to replace my worn one. I guess the cloth probably isn't available either (though that would be a massive undertaking as it would have to be done for all seats given how faded they are). Do you know if the LHD seats are different to the RHD ones?

One other interior question - do you know what the little alcantara trim piece above the ashtray is for?  It's been drilled for a dial and is not actually attached to anything on my dash so it's just bouncing around, and I was wondering if it was supposed to have a useful function or if it was just there to fill space.

Thanks
Duncan


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 23 August, 2020, 04:29:14 PM
Those do look nice seats which have faded a huge amount, so very feasible that the carpet would have faded a similar amount.
Just convert it to rhd and you'd have a better drivers seat  ;D


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: eog on 24 August, 2020, 09:17:52 AM
Perhaps not the most professional way but Ö
Try a dust coat of black aerosol paint on the carpets, no chance of the dye bleeding and it dries quickly!


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 24 August, 2020, 09:30:08 AM
When I did the 924, I took the seats out and then used a plant sprayer to spray the dye on, then worked it with a sponge (while remembering to wear rubber gloves!). It took a whole weekend to dry, but that wasn't so bad, and it made a big difference. And I have a litre or 2 of dye left, so I could easily do all the carpet in the Y10. It's not top of my priority list though.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: nyssa7 on 24 August, 2020, 11:02:58 AM
Canít answer about the carpets, only seen those seats on lefties and not sure what carpets were used to match
That's a shame, I was hoping that these were standard GTie seats and I might be able to find another drivers seat to replace my worn one. I guess the cloth probably isn't available either (though that would be a massive undertaking as it would have to be done for all seats given how faded they are). Do you know if the LHD seats are different to the RHD ones?

One other interior question - do you know what the little alcantara trim piece above the ashtray is for?  It's been drilled for a dial and is not actually attached to anything on my dash so it's just bouncing around, and I was wondering if it was supposed to have a useful function or if it was just there to fill space.

Thanks
Duncan

Iím guessing they are standard EU spec GTie seats, all the UK ones I have seen came with the Alcantara seats - shame I just sold my set to Frank 🙀 although I have another set in beige - but they wouldnít match the grey trim on your dash

Itís just a blanking panel normally, fixed into place and serving no purpose other than filling a gap


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: m tulloch on 24 August, 2020, 07:06:18 PM
Thanks Mike, I think that's probably the best plan. And it's free as well. :)

I've just been out for a quick blast, and it's so much fun. The pedals are really close together which took a little getting used to, and every time I went over a sharp edged bump the dashboard felt like it was going to fall off, but it just wants you to throw it around corners, and while the steering is heavy at low speed it's great when you are on the move. Would be nice if I could see the speedo (or the rev counter) through the steering wheel, but it's all kph anyway, so it's not a huge amount of use!

Putting the window down gave me quite a strong whiff of petrol - I guess that's got to go above the interior on the list of things to fix. Might just be the exhaust - if I remember properly it was an advisory on the last couple of MOTs. Will have to investigate when I next get half an hour...
If you post up a picture of your dials, I'll look & see whether the instrument binnacle I have could yield you an MPH speedo.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 25 August, 2020, 08:55:28 AM
Thanks Mike, I think that's probably the best plan. And it's free as well. :)

I've just been out for a quick blast, and it's so much fun. The pedals are really close together which took a little getting used to, and every time I went over a sharp edged bump the dashboard felt like it was going to fall off, but it just wants you to throw it around corners, and while the steering is heavy at low speed it's great when you are on the move. Would be nice if I could see the speedo (or the rev counter) through the steering wheel, but it's all kph anyway, so it's not a huge amount of use!

Putting the window down gave me quite a strong whiff of petrol - I guess that's got to go above the interior on the list of things to fix. Might just be the exhaust - if I remember properly it was an advisory on the last couple of MOTs. Will have to investigate when I next get half an hour...
If you post up a picture of your dials, I'll look & see whether the instrument binnacle I have could yield you an MPH speedo.
That's an interesting idea. I was planning on just sticking a mobile phone with GPS speedo to the windscreen, but a working speedo would probably be better! Is this  agood enough picture?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50263741223_908836b058_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jzCP6Z)2020-08-24_08-15-46 (https://flic.kr/p/2jzCP6Z) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
Thanks
Duncan


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: m tulloch on 26 August, 2020, 09:04:36 AM
I'll have a look today & send you a picture of what I have.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: lancialulu on 26 August, 2020, 09:28:06 AM
Putting the window down gave me quite a strong whiff of petrol - I guess that's got to go above the interior on the list of things to fix. Might just be the exhaust - if I remember properly it was an advisory on the last couple of MOTs. Will have to investigate when I next get half an hour...
HI I hope you found the cause of petrol wiff. I would check all rubber fuel hoses especially on the underside.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: m tulloch on 26 August, 2020, 05:15:37 PM
Had a good look today but couldn't find the Y10 instruments I used to have, sorry. I did find the dash from one of my old Deltas though! ???


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 26 August, 2020, 06:02:24 PM
Had a good look today but couldn't find the Y10 instruments I used to have, sorry. I did find the dash from one of my old Deltas though! ???
No problem, thanks for looking.  :)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 28 August, 2020, 04:52:04 PM
That manual turned up this afternoon. That's this weekend's reading sorted. :)

If it ever stops raining I'll put some cardboard underneath it and see if anything drips on it. When I can get it up in the air then I'll give all the hoses a good inspection. I was considering if I should just replace all the rubber hoses - they could probably do with it if they are 30 years old.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 02 September, 2020, 02:40:22 PM
The trim panel above the ashtray is where the window switches were mounted on earlier models. The Touring had a row of four switches because the rear side windows opened electrically too.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 02 September, 2020, 02:48:50 PM
OK, sounds like it should just be a blanking plate on mine then.
The manual is a bit strange.  There's a load of useful information in the sections titled "Introduction Technical Data", "Engine", "Electrical Equipment", "Auxiliary Units" and "Bodywork", and absolutely nothing in Clutch, Gearbox Differential, Braking System, Steering, Suspensions and Wheels. There's also an appendix for the selectronic stuff. I guess all the missing information is unchanged from Volume 1.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: peteracs on 02 September, 2020, 05:06:31 PM
Hi Duncan

Given the horror stories about modern fuel and old rubber pipes, I would change out all the rubber pipes for branded ethanol tolerant (R9?) pipes. There are also stories about unbranded R6 pipes being relabelled, so better to buy branded from reputable supplier, my personal view.

This then leaves the question of what to do about the rubber components internal to the likes of carburettor.

Peter


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: fay66 on 02 September, 2020, 06:56:57 PM
OK, sounds like it should just be a blanking plate on mine then.
The manual is a bit strange.  There's a load of useful information in the sections titled "Introduction Technical Data", "Engine", "Electrical Equipment", "Auxiliary Units" and "Bodywork", and absolutely nothing in Clutch, Gearbox Differential, Braking System, Steering, Suspensions and Wheels. There's also an appendix for the selectronic stuff. I guess all the missing information is unchanged from Volume 1.
This usually the case with all the Lancia models.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 03 September, 2020, 10:56:33 AM
Brakes, steering, suspension etc are covered in the Fiat Panda Haynes Manual which is handy to have because it doesn't tell you to get out a special tool to do something simple.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 03 September, 2020, 11:36:35 AM
Brakes, steering, suspension etc are covered in the Fiat Panda Haynes Manual which is handy to have because it doesn't tell you to get out a special tool to do something simple.

That's a good idea. There are a million on eBay, with a bunch of different years - I assume they are all basically equivalent?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: lancialulu on 03 September, 2020, 03:06:53 PM
Brakes, steering, suspension etc are covered in the Fiat Panda Haynes Manual which is handy to have because it doesn't tell you to get out a special tool to do something simple.

The club has loads of special tools For hire for Y10!!! But a big hammer and blunt instrument may suffice....


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 03 September, 2020, 07:03:27 PM
On the Haynes Manual I use the green one that runs up to 1995 because that better matches the Y10. Stuff the Y10 had was passed on to the next generation of Panda so early Pandas are less similar.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 05 September, 2020, 03:56:13 PM
Quick question - what size tyres are people using, on the car and the spare?
The car and the spare have 175 70 R13 on - the manual says it should have 155 70 R13 or 165 65 R13, and the spare should be 135 SR 13, but doesn't give a middle number. I need to change the spare tyre as this one won't fit under the bonnet - is it worth changing the tyres on the car (these ones are clearly too big)? And are there any specific ones to choose/avoid? They are all pleasingly cheap at this size.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 05 September, 2020, 04:59:44 PM
Standard size should be 155/70R13 on yours, was on my gtie and the brochure agress. Smaller models came with 135R13.
The 175/70R13 will be too tall and overgearing it, 165/65s will be similar rolling circumference to the 155/70 but as you say the 155s are cheap as chips so why bother. Makes them more fun to drive too  ;D
As for brands most are of a decent quality nowadays.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 05 September, 2020, 06:33:04 PM
I'm on 155/70 R13s all round on mine including the spare which is on a steel wheel. I ran 135s for a long time which I thought rather suited the Fire 1.0 engine but am perfectly happy with the 155s.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 05 September, 2020, 06:53:16 PM
I'd think the 135s on a FIRE would be well suited, make for an entertaining drive. If I didn't have a set of decent 155/70s I'd look at them for mine.  ;)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: lancialulu on 05 September, 2020, 07:58:34 PM
Quick question - what size tyres are people using, on the car and the spare?
The car and the spare have 175 70 R13 on - the manual says it should have 155 70 R13 or 165 65 R13, and the spare should be 135 SR 13, but doesn't give a middle number. I need to change the spare tyre as this one won't fit under the bonnet - is it worth changing the tyres on the car (these ones are clearly too big)? And are there any specific ones to choose/avoid? They are all pleasingly cheap at this size.
If a middle number is not quoted it is fair to assume standard ratio (today 80 but would have been 82).


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: fay66 on 05 September, 2020, 10:20:39 PM
Quick question - what size tyres are people using, on the car and the spare?
The car and the spare have 175 70 R13 on - the manual says it should have 155 70 R13 or 165 65 R13, and the spare should be 135 SR 13, but doesn't give a middle number. I need to change the spare tyre as this one won't fit under the bonnet - is it worth changing the tyres on the car (these ones are clearly too big)? And are there any specific ones to choose/avoid? They are all pleasingly cheap at this size.
Amazed you can even turn the steering with those on, my GTie was heavy enough on the standard tyres, so much so my wife couldn't drive it, and the understeer into corners when the wheel loaded up!
Our Y10 fire was much nicer to drive, the Brazilian iron lump of an engine added to the wide wheels and tyres, spoilt the Y10 driving experience, and the improved performance didn't make up for that.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: m tulloch on 06 September, 2020, 04:26:43 PM
Brakes, steering, suspension etc are covered in the Fiat Panda Haynes Manual which is handy to have because it doesn't tell you to get out a special tool to do something simple.

That's a good idea. There are a million on eBay, with a bunch of different years - I assume they are all basically equivalent?

I've got Haynes manuals for both the early & late Pandas in my garage going spare if you need them. PM me if you're interested.

Cheers.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 06 September, 2020, 04:34:02 PM
Thanks for the offer, but I've managed to buy the green one and the blue one on eBay for in under a tenner delivered - they should arrive in a couple of days


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 20 September, 2020, 12:50:43 PM
155 70 R13 fitted today.  Made a massive difference to the low speed manoeuvrability and the the driving dynamics. :) £40 a corner as well - I got 5 tyres for less than the cost of 2 fronts on my daily. As an added bonus the spare now fits under the bonnet, but I don't seem to have a nut to hold it down in there - is there a special nut or is it just a case of finding something that fits and a large washer to hold the wheel?

The little drive I did in it afterwards was much nicer with these tyres, but it's not running quite right - it's fine with significant throttle or no throttle, but on light throttle it feels a a little jittery like it doesn't want to hold a constant speed. It also feels like it's running rich - there's a definite fuel smell, though it doesn't look like it's dripping anywhere. Could these be linked? I know nothing about this engine (will have to read the manual). It's not been driven much, and it isn't especially happy when first started, but when it gets going then it's fine.
The other thing I noticed was that on bumpy roads, and especially when not accelerating, the gearbox linkage was clanging quite a lot (like someone playing a triangle in there!). I know it's the linkage, because it goes away if I put my hand on the gear lever. Is this a known thing, and does it mean it needs adjusting (or bushings replacing or something)?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: m tulloch on 20 September, 2020, 03:24:23 PM
Is it one of these you're after for the spare wheel?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 21 September, 2020, 07:05:47 AM
It looks like there's a bolt already installed on the strut top, so I probably just need a nut and the domed washer thing.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 21 September, 2020, 09:10:26 AM
The spare wheel is retained by a large white plastic disc that screws onto the threaded post in the middle of the spare wheel as shown in an quick image search on google.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 21 September, 2020, 11:53:06 AM
I saw that, but I thought it was a metal thing similar to what Matt posted. I've had a dig through the spares that came with the car, and I don't have one - is it basically one of these?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-cavalier-Mk3-Spare-Wheel-Retainer-Nut/164360139532?hash=item2644a0b30c:g:Ri0AAOSwBXRfS7iS

I have the tool clip thing and the jack for the other side sat in the boot, so I'll try to install that later as well. :)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 21 September, 2020, 04:36:56 PM
Yes it's like that but I couldn't guarantee that one has the same thread.

This might help with getting the tool carrier the right way round.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: fay66 on 21 September, 2020, 10:23:13 PM
155 70 R13 fitted today.  Made a massive difference to the low speed manoeuvrability and the the driving dynamics. :) £40 a corner as well - I got 5 tyres for less than the cost of 2 fronts on my daily. As an added bonus the spare now fits under the bonnet, but I don't seem to have a nut to hold it down in there - is there a special nut or is it just a case of finding something that fits and a large washer to hold the wheel?

The little drive I did in it afterwards was much nicer with these tyres, but it's not running quite right - it's fine with significant throttle or no throttle, but on light throttle it feels a a little jittery like it doesn't want to hold a constant speed. It also feels like it's running rich - there's a definite fuel smell, though it doesn't look like it's dripping anywhere. Could these be linked? I know nothing about this engine (will have to read the manual). It's not been driven much, and it isn't especially happy when first started, but when it gets going then it's fine.
The other thing I noticed was that on bumpy roads, and especially when not accelerating, the gearbox linkage was clanging quite a lot (like someone playing a triangle in there!). I know it's the linkage, because it goes away if I put my hand on the gear lever. Is this a known thing, and does it mean it needs adjusting (or bushings replacing or something)?
It's worth replacing all the bushes etc of the gear change as otherwise you finish up not being able to tell even what gear you're in, on the back of the gearbox is a large swivel tree and an awful lot of the gear change problems emenate from wear there.
Well worth doing.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 22 September, 2020, 09:51:47 AM
155 70 R13 fitted today.  Made a massive difference to the low speed manoeuvrability and the the driving dynamics. :) £40 a corner as well - I got 5 tyres for less than the cost of 2 fronts on my daily. As an added bonus the spare now fits under the bonnet, but I don't seem to have a nut to hold it down in there - is there a special nut or is it just a case of finding something that fits and a large washer to hold the wheel?

The little drive I did in it afterwards was much nicer with these tyres, but it's not running quite right - it's fine with significant throttle or no throttle, but on light throttle it feels a a little jittery like it doesn't want to hold a constant speed. It also feels like it's running rich - there's a definite fuel smell, though it doesn't look like it's dripping anywhere. Could these be linked? I know nothing about this engine (will have to read the manual). It's not been driven much, and it isn't especially happy when first started, but when it gets going then it's fine.
The other thing I noticed was that on bumpy roads, and especially when not accelerating, the gearbox linkage was clanging quite a lot (like someone playing a triangle in there!). I know it's the linkage, because it goes away if I put my hand on the gear lever. Is this a known thing, and does it mean it needs adjusting (or bushings replacing or something)?
It's worth replacing all the bushes etc of the gear change as otherwise you finish up not being able to tell even what gear you're in, on the back of the gearbox is a large swivel tree and an awful lot of the gear change problems emenate from wear there.
Well worth doing.
Brian
8227  8)
It's not covered in my Y10 manual - I assume it's the same as the Panda gear linkage? Is it the late model version like this one: https://www.ricambio.co.uk/gear-lever-linkage-bush-repair-kit-classic-fiat-panda-1
Are there other suitable parts suppliers before I venture onto eBay (ricambio only have the kit for the early models in stock).

Thanks for the picture Frank, the toolkit and jack fit nicely in the gap:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50371211002_4f9d261882_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jK8C8d)2020-09-22_10-49-55 (https://flic.kr/p/2jK8C8d) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 22 September, 2020, 11:30:17 AM
That's only the gear linkage as far as the engine bay fire wall. There's joints from there to the gear box but they're maybe a pain to get to with the engine in situ. I agree though that those bits will probably stop the lever rattling.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 31 October, 2020, 05:19:27 PM
I have finally sorted out my garage this week and got the car inside it.  :)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50550692223_3793b81248_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k1ZvD2)2020-10-31_05-17-37 (https://flic.kr/p/2k1ZvD2) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

That's the good news, the bad news is that while I was drying it after I put it away I noticed these 2 paint cracks on the roof. They aren't very long (maybe 2-3 inches), but one has clearly chipped a bit and I can see rust underneath (maybe fingernail sized). Clearly I should probably pick the paint off, deal with the rust and stick some more paint back on again. I guess I'll have to get it matched because it will be faded compared to the original colour, but it's also right next to the black roof strip, and I'm guessing that to do a proper job I should take that out and check the metal underneath. I couldn't see how they were attached, so I didn't want to do any damage by just putting it out from the back - does anyone have any info about how they are attached, or how they go back in again?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50551313202_a810dbf80d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k23Gey)2020-10-31_04-05-51 (https://flic.kr/p/2k23Gey) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
I'm going to follow up with Ricambio about the gearbox bushes because they seem to have been out of stock for ages, but if anyone has any suggestions for parts specialists who might have them in stock then that would also be much appreciated.
Cheers
Duncan


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 31 October, 2020, 06:00:42 PM
I'm afraid the black strip is held in by the metal trim above the rear side windows which is in turn is bolted in from the inside under the headlining. Removing the black strip just isn't worth it for the sake of touching up a paint chip.

You should be able to mask the black strip, maybe by sliding a strip of plastic in the crack and pulling the black rubber away from the edge of the roof. Also, for a tiny area like that you might get away with not having an exact paint match. Once it is cut and polished it won't be too obvious. I started off by trying to colour match localised damage on my red Y10 but the more I did the more it became obvious that adjoining parts weren't a precise match. Some reds seem to have a blue balance whereas others lean towards the yellow. The match looks OK in daylight but glaringly wrong under artificial light like street lamps. My advice would be to keep the area of repair as limited as possible. AS a holding measure you might get away with bleeding a rust converter like Kurust into the damage then bleeding paint in once it has cured using a fine artists paint brush. (I've actually just been doing similar job on my wife's car and on a tiny repair you really don't notice that the colour isn't a precise match.)

Another thing to mention, for the sake of completeness if you do try for a colour match, my paint factor adds a gloss "converter" to my touch up paint so it doesn't need a lacquer coat over it.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 31 October, 2020, 06:19:54 PM
Thanks Frank. I was worried about if the rust went under the rubber strip, but if it doesn't then I'll leave it where it is. To be honest, the paint on this car is probably several different colours - the bonnet has definitely got different layers on it! I'll pick as small an area of paint off as I can, sand it slightly and then kurust it, and once it's painted hopefully it will just blend in with the rest of the "patina". ;)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: m tulloch on 03 November, 2020, 10:42:11 PM
Had a good laugh at your picture of the car in the garage, I can see why the VX wouldn't fit!!


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 05 November, 2020, 02:48:20 PM
Had a good laugh at your picture of the car in the garage, I can see why the VX wouldn't fit!!
It might have worked, if I emptied the entire garage out and then padded all the walls so I could just drive into them! :) I (just) fitted a Beta Spyder in there for a while, but that's around 300mm shorter (and we had no dishwasher)!
I think the Y10 made a lot more sense.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 08 November, 2020, 06:29:01 PM
I decided to clay-bar the roof to see if there was any other sorts of damage on it. There are a few dents and some other paint defects, but these cracks are the only bits that go through the paint. So after claying the half of the roof I could get to, I decided to pick at the cracks and see what was underneath.

Pound for scale.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50579882101_5095e47547_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k4z7LM)2020-11-08_03-38-20 (https://flic.kr/p/2k4z7LM)
As you can see, the front crack doesn't have any rust and hasn't gone through the primer, but the back one has minor surface rust - I'm going to pick the length of the crack (so that it will hopefully not get any larger) and then apply some kurust - I don't think there is anything else needed, and the paint seems reasonably well stuck underneath the black rubber strip. Once done I'll just whack some primer on and try to get some paint online - does anyone know where the paint code is lurking on the car? If not then I'll have to dig through the documentation and see if I can work it out.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 08 November, 2020, 08:32:28 PM
The paint code is usually on a silver sticker inside the tailgate. (It can get very confusing if you swap out a rusty tailgate!)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: SanRemo78 on 08 November, 2020, 09:31:02 PM
Errrrrrrrrrmmmmmm - check the other current Y10 thread - looks like it's on a suspension turret?
Guy


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 09 November, 2020, 01:35:50 PM
Silly me thinking I knew something about Y10s.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 09 November, 2020, 02:28:09 PM
The only stickers on the inside of the boot lid are two white on black ones in multiple languages saying to only use genuine parts and something about ECUs. I guess the sticker on the other car is on the rear turret, which means I need to take the back seat and the cover out to see if I have one there. I guess it's possible it'll be somewhere completely different given it's LHD (or just missing).


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 09 November, 2020, 03:29:24 PM
No, mine was indeed on the drivers front turret but as Frank said to me at the time it's unusual to see it there.
They are more often than not in a fairly  visible place on all cars so you shouldn't have to hunt far for the bodyshop. Inside of boot / hatch are often places on most makes, if Frank says usually on the inside of the tailgate then that's where I'd expect it to be as he's seen more than his fair share of Y10's!
As it's not there, nor under the bonnet I'd just check within the boot to see if it's on the inside of the back panel.
But not wanting to be negative I'd say with the car being red, and apparently faded I wouldn't order just from the paint code anyway unless you are going to be buffing the original paint back, it won't be a very good match..
I'd just go to a motor factor's that does paint and get them to match some, once you've polished it as best as it can be.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 09 November, 2020, 05:06:20 PM
The little plugs that cover the bolt that attaches the boot hinge to the body is a handy thing to take to the paint factor to try and match. Just be sure not to try and pries it out from the front as the locating tabs easily snap off. I always open the tailgate and poke them out from behind using a long screwdriver on the nearest tab.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 03 January, 2021, 04:33:26 PM
The various motor factors couldn't sort me out with a match, so I gave up and got some Rosso Aguro to see if it would match. It didn't, but I figured I should get the rust sorted anyway and worry about the paint match after (the car isn't exactly pristine anyway).
I treated the roof - kurust gel, followed by filler and then the mismatched red paint.
And I couldn't resist taking it for a spin this lunchtime.  It reminded me why I like it so much (it's a rorty snorty little thing, even if it isn't fast) and all the issues with it - the seat is strange (it feels like it wants me to look at the A pillar), the dashboard is falling apart, the gearshift is somewhat imprecise, and now I've realised that the rear fog lights don't work (there's something odd going on with the switch, hence the investigation). One of the front ones does. Also, strangely, the indicators are twice as fast on the left as on the right - both sides have the required 3 bulbs lighting up though. And the heater isn't up to much.

A couple of hours later I had half an hour to kill, so I figured I'd see what was holding the dashboard together.  Turns out, not a lot!
The whole section that is sitting on top of the dashboard in this (terrible) picture is supposed to be held on by 4 screws. 3 were MIA, with both broken holes and missing mounting points, and the last one (the leftmost one) was using a big washer to hold it in place because the hole is missing.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50796085317_2ddf15aa4c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2koFdsr)2021-01-03_04-14-01 (https://flic.kr/p/2koFdsr) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
The central (wonky) piece beneath it is supposed to be held by 6 screws - they are still there but the bit that they screw into is broken and there is only one corner that is still attached to the rest of the dash! I undid the screws so it wasn't held in at all, and it still didn't move - all the cables for the heater controls held it in place (I recon that's why that piece of dash hadn't expired)!
The main part of the dashboard is bolted fairly securely to the bodyshell, so that's not falling apart (yet), but as well as all the broken mounting points it has some significant cracks in it, so I think it's time it all comes out.  I'm thinking I'll try to epoxy some reinforcing steel in (and re-make some of the attachment points in steel, using the bodyshell mounting points as a base if possible), and then smooth it and give flocking a go. If I can't rescue some of the alcantara covered pieces, then I might try flocking them as well (in grey like the alcantara so it's not just a giant sea of black). I'm going to have a look for a steering wheel boss too as I have a nice wheel sat in the loft and the existing one is a bit meh (plus it's a bit far away and only adjusts up/down).

Glad I got to drive it today, I don't think it's going to be the work of a moment to get this out and fixed up!

Does anyone have any of the glovebox unit or a cover flap for the stereo? The glovebox was massacred when they put the aircon in (another sea of broken plastic), and the hinged for the stereo cover appear to be snapped off in place. The original was grey alcantara, but given much of it is unsalvageable, I may try flocking it, in which case it doesn't matter what covering it has.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 04 January, 2021, 11:04:59 AM
You probably should be going to a "paint factor" not a "motor factor" to match your paint. Find out where the local body shops get their supplies. They'll mix up a single rattle can perfectly happily or a touch up bottle, they'll have thousands of swatches to try and find a match if you haven't got a code and if it's non metallic they can add a converter so it sprays gloss without the need for a lacquer coat. Price is comparable to or cheaper than a general motor factor.

It sounds like your dash panel needs to come out for a rebuild. I have thought that laying up a layer of fiberglass all over the inside was the way to go though mine hasn't reached the stage of needing that yet. The good news is that the wiring in the dash is a separate loom with lots of connectors that plug into the wiring harness on the fire wall which helps with removal. See pictures.

The arms of the radio covers have their weakest point at the point of maximum stress so they are regular casualties.

I have a shed full of grey alcantara trim parts which are looking for new homes if you'd make a full list of what you need.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 04 January, 2021, 12:05:58 PM
Hi Frank
You are right about the paint factor, but I wasn't organised and they weren't open!
Thanks for your kind offer on the alcantara parts - I'll start taking the dash apart properly and make a list.  The arms of the radio cover are broken in the same place as your picture (but are still stuck in the dash). Fibreglass behind the dash is probably the best idea to reinforce and stop any further cracking, but I don't like the idea of screws into small plastic (or fibreglass) tabs - it's all bound to break as soon as it gets just a little bit brittle. Hence the idea of using steel for the screws to attach into.
Cheers
Duncan


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 04 January, 2021, 01:36:46 PM
One other question - does anyone know if the clocks are interchangeable RHD and LHD?  If I've got the dash apart then maybe it's time to change to a mph speedo (assuming I can find one).


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: m tulloch on 04 January, 2021, 03:56:54 PM
I've an instrument pack from a Y10 FIRE if that helps you.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 04 January, 2021, 07:14:44 PM
The clocks probably are interchangeable between right and left hand drive but the ones from a Fire likely have a different selection of plugs on the back because there are about half the number of instruments. You can't even swap the speedometer face because it is a different size.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 04 January, 2021, 07:19:49 PM
Unfortunately, Frank is right, my clocks look different to the FIRE ones with a rev counter on the right
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50263741223_908836b058_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jzCP6Z)2020-08-24_08-15-46 (https://flic.kr/p/2jzCP6Z) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr
Thanks for the offer Matt.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 04 January, 2021, 08:38:12 PM
Do you have a decent surround Frank for the dash? My FIRE one has broken at the top corner where it screws on, to the left of the dials. The long section that goes under the gauges and up each side....sure you know the part I mean!  ;D


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 05 January, 2021, 10:58:19 AM
I'll send you a message Kevin.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 11 January, 2021, 11:41:20 AM
I've been slowly (it's cold in the garage) working my way through dismantling the dash. Hopefully today I can make a little more progress and take some pictures of how far I have got. It's no wonder it was so creaky.  I've got as far as removing the clocks, and they are the only part where all the screws that the manual shows were present and working! I'm going to have to do quite a lot of reinforcing if it's going to stay together when I put it back in the car!


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 16 January, 2021, 07:29:24 PM
I've been doing little bits and pieces on this, but today I got on with it properly.
So far, this is what I've managed to remove:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50842183701_27605630c1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ksKtUa)2021-01-16_07-20-08 (https://flic.kr/p/2ksKtUa) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

Obviously, various bits of flimsy plastic broke while I was removing things, the most annoying being the vent at the edge of the dash. The manual says "prise it out" and shows a picture of someone levering it out with a screwdriver, but it snapped in half (and a piece came off the front as well). Does anyone know if the RHD and LHD ones are the same unit just turned upside down?  Otherwise I'm guessing this might be quite tricky to replace (assuming any spares exist and they haven't all destroyed themselves on removal).

The only thing that is stopping me from removing the dashboard now obviously aside from the one screw I probably didn't know existed and so will rip out some more plastic) is the heater controls.  They are loose, but there are 3 cables that go through grommets in the dash and are going to need to be removed from the back of the control unit (the manual backs me up on this one). However, I can't work out how to disconnect them (on this the manual is less helpful).  Anyone got any ideas? This is what it looks like behind the heater:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50842271947_50f5b3fdcd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ksKW8D)2021-01-16_07-20-29 (https://flic.kr/p/2ksKW8D) by duncancmartin (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90461577@N00/), on Flickr

Once the dash is out, then I can look at how I'm going to hold it all together (need to order myself some fibreglass) and also how I recreate mounting points so it all goes back together again properly. Also, while the stereo turned on and changed radio channel, it wasn't making any noise in the car, having pulled it out of the dashboard, I discovered why. All the output leads weren't connected to anything! The install is a right shoddy job, the wires are just soldered up and individually taped, so when the dashboard is back together I'm going to have to restore some semblance of order and connect them all back through a sensible block, but that can wait for now.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 16 January, 2021, 09:00:38 PM
For the heater control cable I found that undoing them at the heater box itself under the bonnet and pulling the cables all through was the answer.
For removing things like the air vent, or anything plastic come to that is to use plastic pry bars rather than screwdrivers as there is far less chance of damaging the surrounding plastic by bruising it.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 17 January, 2021, 10:39:02 AM
Not having a LHD dash to compare it with I can't say if the side window de-misting vent at the edge of the dash is the same as a RHD one flipped over but you ought to be able to look at it carefully and see if it is symmetrical from top to bottom. If it is symmetrical I'm sure I have at least one spare. I also think I have the clocks you need in MPH form. They came from a Touring. Post lockdown you need to come and have a rummage for useful bits.

Radios connections get hacked about when a radio with a different connector is fitted. In the past I have added a universal connector from Halfords onto the loom and used an adapter lead to get the right plug for the new radio. The problem on the Y10 is that there is almost no room at all at the back of the radio so if you add extra wiring the radio no longer  slides back into its mounting. Access for fiddling about is also a problem. What I do is put a bunch of the smallest choc-block connectors I can find on the loom, one for power and stuff, one for front speakers and one for back speakers, and put about 25 cm of extension cable on them. That gives enough slack to put the connectors you want for your chosen radio on the other end of the extension and have room to connect it up. You still have to get the choc-blocks to lie out of the way of the back of the radio when you fit it but at least you have a bit of slack to play with.

Keep an eye out on e-bay and things because every once in a while a dead LHD Y10 comes up for sale. I stripped one near Hull some years ago which had been abandoned by a foreign student at the university. Unfortunately I didn't anticipate anyone in the UK needing LHD trim parts.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 18 January, 2021, 09:52:22 AM
It's not symmetrical, so I'll need a LHD one. I can probably stick it back together if absolutely necessary, but I might see if I can find one from a breaker in Europe. During an earlier search for a dashboard I saw on Leboncoin a couple of places breaking Y10s.

Getting the heater cables off the heater is definitely going to be easier than trying to take them off the controls - thanks for that tip. Taking the battery and the other bits around there out might also help me work out what the extra wires I have kicking around do. The only downside is that the heat shielding around the heater is really tired - cracking plastic and flaking insulation. I assume that all these are kinda knackered - what's the recommended replacement?

Frank - I think having a look around your parts stash is a good idea when lockdown ends. And yeah, the universal connector kit from Halfords or similar is definitely on the cards for this radio.  I might even change it for one that does bluetooth (and check the speakers) while everything is in pieces. The advantage of the radio cover (if I can get the old arms out and find a matching one) is that it doesn't have to look period to fit in with the rest of the interior.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 18 January, 2021, 12:31:07 PM
The arms of the radio cover are held in with hinge pins which you can get at when you have taken the radio out. Here are some pictures from behind the dash so you can see how it works. The pins go in the hole then are twisted round so they lock under a tab to stop them moving. The ones pictured aren't under the tab because all the plastic was too cold and hard when I took the picture and I didn't want to break anything.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 21 January, 2021, 09:09:19 AM
I saw those pins and I was wondering how they worked. :)

Yesterday evening I got the heater cables off at the front. The good news is that it was easy - the bad news is that the white plastic clips basically just fell apart (and one wasn't even screwed in!). That's a problem for re-assembly, but I'm not going to worry about it now.
That little progress meant I could move and wiggle and move and wiggle the dashboard, but it's held by the wiring running behind it.  The main point seems to be below the steering wheel on the left.  there is a box with relays and stuff down there, which I have undone from the dash, but I definitely need to unclip some stuff.  Is there an easy way to find it, or is it just a matter of wiggling it around until you can get your hands in behind, and then blindly undoing electrical connectors until there's none left to undo? Are there any hints as to how best to do this - sitting in the drivers seat and working under the dash is giving me neck ache!


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 21 January, 2021, 09:40:54 AM
Given the amount of stripping you are doing you might consider taking the front seat out so you can get under the dash from a different position. The seats are only bolted down at the front but the sliders in the rails at the side have to come out towards the back of the car and I think there is a metal tab in the runner that acts as a stop to prevent the seat sliding backwards off the rail during normal adjustment. I used a small cold chisel and a large hammer to push the tab back for removing the seat.

The only guide I can offer on disconnecting things is the pictures I posted earlier of the back of the dashboard.

Kevin did a thing on those white clips on the heater cables a short time ago in his Y10 rebuild thread.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 21 January, 2021, 09:46:17 AM
Yeah, taking the seat out so I could lie on my back and look under the dash did occur to me. I have some carpet dye lying around from when I did the 924 carpet, so if I was feeling ambitious I could take the other seat and the centre console out and make the carpet black again. I should really stick to one project at a time!
Your picture of the back of the dash is really useful, but I don't know how much of a mirror it is being LHD.
I'll check out Kevin's thread (again - I tend to get lost in there admiring it all!).


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 23 January, 2021, 05:36:22 PM
Well, there's good news and there's bad news.
The first thing I did was label the stereo wires and then cut them. Hopefully that will mean I can find them, reverse engineer what they are from the back of the stereo and then splice them into a generic block connector. Then I removed (well broke) the last clip on the heater cables and pulled them all through.
Finally it was time to actually start moving the dash.
I started off following the instructions, trying to disconnect all the connectors.  There were about 6 that connected the loom that was part of the dash to the column, and I could actually reach these ones so I disconnected them. That meant that the dash could move a bit more, and I realised that there were loads hiding behind the dash. Given how much of a struggle doing them when I could see them, and where I could actually get tools on them, I didn't fancy my chances of disconnecting the hundreds that were lurking out of reach under the dash and behind a bunch of other cabling.
So I took the easy way out, cut the 3 cable ties that connected the dash loom to the dash, and just yanked the dash off the loom, leaving that still in the car. After much effort and swearing, the dash moved off the loom and appeared to be free. I almost got the whole thing out, but there were some (more) random attachments that I've no idea what they are holding it fast. Once I'd removed the random panel holding them, I could finally try to get it out of the car.  There were several times during this process I thought it was going to break in half, but miraculously it didn't.  So before I start the jigsaw puzzle of putting the broken shards of dashboard left in my footwell back into the dash, here's what came out.
The central piece is almost entirely disconnected from the main bit that passes across the car, the whole section around the steering column is cracked to hell (possibly from resting on the steering column where I fought everything else), there are loads of missing points where there should be mounts for screws, and there is a giant crack running across the top just in front of the driver. Aside from that, it's not too bad! ;)

I need to get hold of some epoxy and CSM and start putting some strength back into it - once I'm happy it won't fall apart in my hands I'll have to start working out how to add all the mounting points back in so that you can attach the clocks, heating etc sturdily. I'm guessing that's going to take a little while templating up bits of steel (in some cases working out how to add the mounting holes back onto the heating stuff too). After that's done, I guess it will be time for the flocking!
I also need to disconnect all the bits of that loom, clean all the connectors so you can push them together and take them apart without enormous force.

Once I've done all that, I can consider re-uniting the dash and the loom and putting it back in the car - don't think I'll be driving it for a little while!


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 23 January, 2021, 06:00:46 PM
Certainly got some damaged bits to repair there, they are a fairly flimsy dash being of the brittle plastic variety without any metal reinforcing backbone so bound to be a bit fragile.
It's a challenge you've set yourself but attacking each area in turn rather than looking at the whole will see you the best chance of a decent outcome. Araldite used to be a good strong two part epoxy, not sure if it's a brand still in circulation as last time I tried to buy some I couldn't find any so bought some Gorilla glue in a strikingly similar package which made me wonder about if it had re-branded, suspicion growing when using the glue that it had the same smell as Araldite and behaved the same.
When I repaired mine I made up some metal pieces to brace the cracks and used self tapper screws to dig into the plastic, this combined with the epoxy under and over the metal will make for a strong repair.

When my dash came out I left all the wires attached to the back of the dash rather than try and unclip them all, but then I also had the luxury of the whole engine bay wiring loom ready to pull through too so I can't see that being too much of an option. Maybe you could pull the loom through a bit and lay the dash sideways in the floor to enable the wiring to be clipped back into place?
Often though it can be best to just reverse the removal process to prevent confusion.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 23 January, 2021, 07:20:52 PM
I saw a thing advertised the other day for mending broken plastic like this.

It was like a twin soldering iron with little wire squiggles that went between the two arms. The wire heated up and melted across the crack, joining and reinforcing it, then the ends going into the iron snapped off like pop rivet ends.

This is the sort of thing though I expect they can be found cheaper.

https://www.frost.co.uk/eastwood-hot-stapler-plastic-repair-system/?gclid=CjwKCAiAr6-ABhAfEiwADO4sfd-Xv8tcfZyREyMPvDqt74jEeQua3-Z056F5gEu5wl0YQV_7k8c3EhoC-a4QAvD_BwE

It would be a case of balancing the cost including time against getting a second hand dash from Europe.

Failing that I think the plastic welding cements for repairing bumpers might be a better way forward than araldite which I have found to crack when flexed.

I'm not convinced about flocking on a Y10 but it sounds like it's something you are keen to try. It's hard to resist when you have a cunning plan like that!

 


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 23 January, 2021, 08:07:42 PM
The plastic welding stuff looks interesting.
I figured it would need a second layer of something behind it (steel where we need screws, fibreglass elsewhere). I'll need to use a different material to bridge the gaps anyway. How much does it need to flex?

I think that unless I cover it in something it will just look like it has been shoddily repaired. Hence the flocking idea.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 23 January, 2021, 10:41:02 PM
Flexing is an issue as Frank says, maybe an epoxy like araldite might not be suitable.
Similarly fibreglass would be difficult to get good adherence to the plastic and would peel off when flexed.
With the movement of the car, heat and cooling of the plastic is enough to cause issues.
Plastic weld repair kit looks interesting.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 24 January, 2021, 01:22:17 PM
It's not so much a case of it needing to flex as the fact that it is liable to flex as you put it in and out. I have used araldite to repair the arms of the radio cover and found a tendency for it to crack at the point where the arms broke on the first place. It just makes me a bit cautious about what I expect of araldite.

One idea I have had is, once the surface of the dash is fastened back together, inserting reinforcement in the recesses at the back then filling it all with expanding foam.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: lancialulu on 24 January, 2021, 02:39:01 PM
Could you use PE seam sealer taping over the crack. That product is strong and flexible and black. Just an idea


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 24 January, 2021, 04:26:29 PM
I have ordered a cheap plastic welder from Amazon. Will have a go with it next weekend... I'll still need to bond some brackets in so I can attach everything else (I'll use screws as well where the back of the panel is hidden). I've got some of those U clips so as I can make reasonable sized holes in the brackets and have some adjustment to line everything up - hopefully that should make re-assembly easier (and longer lasting).

To make refitting the dash easier I'm gonna remove the centre console. That and the steering column are the only bits that really get in the way (and I've not looked into how complicated removing the steering column yet).


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Kevinlincs on 24 January, 2021, 05:58:43 PM
Steering column is very simple to remove, or just lower down.
You probably already have the cowling covers off around the control levers, if not that's just a few screws.
The column itself is held on at 4 places, two 10mm socket sized bolts at the lower end and two 13mm socket sized nuts at the top.
You can either just lay it on the floor like that or first off remove the nut and bolt holding the column to the steering rack at the pinch clamp near the floor, you can then pull the whole column out of the car but it's worth marking the position so you get it back on the same spline.
All the connections for the control levers are different to each other either in number of wires or colours of wire so will only logically go back in one way but I guess you've already got them undone.



Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 25 January, 2021, 10:10:23 AM
The cowling cover is off. In theory it should be 3 screws, but 2 of them are spinning in broken plastic, so it only needed one to remove it. About par for the course for this car!
If it's that simple then I'll drop the column before I put the dash back in - the easier I can make it the better. ;)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: lancianut666 on 25 January, 2021, 10:25:54 AM
You deserve a medal for attempting this major repair of the dashboard...I would be trawling Ebay.It for a LHD dash
Clarkey


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 25 January, 2021, 12:10:31 PM
If the steering column cowl is the same as RHD I have got one that the screws don't spin in if you need it.

I'm pretty sure all the wiring connector blocks are unique so it is impossible to put the wrong ones together.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 27 January, 2021, 11:59:10 AM
The plastic weld tool arrived yesterday. I'm hoping to get half an hour to experiment with it this evening. I don't have any items of similar thickness/brittleness of plastic to experiment on, so I might just pick a couple of inconspicuous bits and give it a go. I think I'll start with the steering column shroud, because I'm pretty sure that the LHD and RHD are the same so I can replace it if I mess it up!


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: DavidLaver on 27 January, 2021, 03:10:06 PM
I stumbled on this guy for aluminium "welding" using the low temp sticks and a blow torch, and he makes good use of that on non critical items, bits of body work for a custom bike.  He's also great on getting started with a low cost wheeling machine which encouraged me to buy one for my godson who's done well with it.

His plastic welding has 2.3 million views which is pretty good for someone with an english accent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRCMIDILfEI

....and from nine years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61iyLarL258
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7GRNvPSf7k



Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 27 January, 2021, 07:32:57 PM
That video was interesting just using a soldering iron.
The tool is a bit of a mixed bag.  It didn't have the knife in the packet, the instructions were garbage, and the plug was one of those 2 pin continental ones. :(

On the other hand, it works really well. :) You pull the trigger, wait for the little pin thing to glow, press it into the plastic and release the trigger. A couple of seconds later, you can just pull the gun thing off and put a new pin into it. This is what the repair looks like (I trimmed the sticking out bits afterwards).

The repaired item seems pretty sturdy, so I'm happy that when I get a chance on the weekend I can still loads of them into the dash and it will hold it all together pretty well. I've still not ordered the fibreglass to repair the bits where there are huge gaps and missing bits of plastic, but hopefully I can get it organised soon!




Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 28 January, 2021, 08:01:35 PM
I had a go at repairing the actual dash this evening. As with most of my posts, there's good and bad. I was able to repair quite a few cracks, and they are pretty solid now.
However, access to some of the cracked areas from behind is really tricky, and I managed to melt all the way through one part of the dash top (it's really thin here).
I'll try and clean this up a bit and see if I can make the original finish more presentable, but I think it might be a bit of a lost cause.  This dash is never going to be great given the giant hole someone hacked in it when they installed the aircon, so I might give up on that as a bad idea and accept the idea of plastic welding from the front, before smoothing everything out and flocking it. I'll see how well I can do working from the back first though. I also need to work out how to solve the problems with the central vent mounting points.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 29 January, 2021, 12:32:07 AM
For the dash top I'm not sure you need to weld it from the top. That's one place you can put a reinforcing bar all the way across inside from behind and fill the whole space with resin or expanding foam. The fine crack remaining on top will be covered by your flocking without risking messing it all up by welding something that is already critically thin. Even without flocking I think it could be lightly filled, textured and spray painted black without looking particularly bad.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 29 January, 2021, 09:27:58 AM
I don't want to use foam, because either it doesn't expand enough to fill the space, or it expands too much and goes everywhere! I agree about bonding in a patch from behind, though there are ribs that would need to be removed first. I'll definitely try that before "welding" from the face of the dash. I may even try to make a (removable) panel that goes where the glovebox would have been, to add structure and avoid having a gaping hole there.
If you were trying to restore the texture to bits that are filled before painting, how would you do it? I've seen a few attempts on YouTube and they all end up looking rubbish (and so do dashes without any texture at all). Or would you just use a paint that has a finish built into it (like the hammered ones)? Inability to answer these questions are why I ended up at flocking.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: fay66 on 29 January, 2021, 10:41:02 AM
I don't want to use foam, because either it doesn't expand enough to fill the space, or it expands too much and goes everywhere! I agree about bonding in a patch from behind, though there are ribs that would need to be removed first. I'll definitely try that before "welding" from the face of the dash. I may even try to make a (removable) panel that goes where the glovebox would have been, to add structure and avoid having a gaping hole there.
If you were trying to restore the texture to bits that are filled before painting, how would you do it? I've seen a few attempts on YouTube and they all end up looking rubbish (and so do dashes without any texture at all). Or would you just use a paint that has a finish built into it (like the hammered ones)? Inability to answer these questions are why I ended up at flocking.
I used expanding foam a number of years ago to remake some of the crash padding on my fulvia, I didn't find it a problem as any excess foam was easily cut back with a sharp knife.
Can't remember who made it, or if it is even still about, but at one time you could get a kit for repairing dash tops, it was some sort of filler and came with various  pieces of material that were grained to look like that you were repairing, I think you put in the filler, then placed the grained material over the top and iron was applied, that dried the pattern of the grain into the repair.
Brian
8227  : 8)


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 29 January, 2021, 12:59:31 PM
Sometimes you have to accept that a repair isn't going to look perfect but so long as it doesn't catch the eye nobody really notices. I have a crack right across my dash top towards the outer end of the instrument cluster but I probably notice it more than anyone else would.

Flocking is one of those things that sounds magical but may be anything but easy to do effectively, especially on a large panel. I tried following the videos about trimming bits off carpets to repair the worn edge of a seat. It looked so easy, which it probably is if you have got the right technique and years of practice. My efforts on a tiny area were only a marginal improvement at best and not at all what I had hoped for.

Textured paint doesn't sound like a good idea, certainly not hammerite. Crackle finish paint requires the part to be heated in an oven which is a non starter with a large plastic facia panel. For texturing filler maybe you could use a silicone rubber to take a mould off an undamaged part of the dash then use that to texture the filler. Bumper repair products may be the right sort of thing to look at for fillers and a coat of satin black plastic paint over the whole facia panel should blend everything together.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 01 February, 2021, 10:04:41 AM
I will take those idea on board and do some more research, but I think the final finish is a bridge a little way off. :) And the more work I do on this dash, the more I realise just how utterly knackered it is.  Still, I bought this car to give me something to tinker with, and this definitely counts as tinkering!  ;)

I started on the steel reinforcing bits this weekend. Firstly I labelled everything up so I knew what went where. Then I started on the CAD (cardboard version), and I basically made templates for everything before I went anywhere near the steel. After I'd cut out and shaped a few of the steel templates (1.2mm zintec - hopefully will help avoid rusting), I realised that there was a rather large piece missing in the middle.

You can see in this picture, that the heater controls bolt up to some plastic in the middle of the dash. The blue ones are all there (though they need reinforcing - I think it should join the top but that has broken), but the green bit is supposed to have something similar to bolt to in the gap where the red shape is.

So I'm going to try to make a steel replacement (I probably have some random pieces of broken plastic somewhere, but this plastic is crap and steel is bound to be more sturdy). The initial template looks like this, but I realised I should make it more of an "n" shape where the holes go, so I'll have to add an extra fold and some extra tabs on the end. This is going to be the most complex repair shape I have ever made, and I can't build it in pieces and then weld together in situ because that would probably melt the plastic (and or damage the epoxy holding it all in). I guess I could bond the metal together, but I'd rather make the metal structure one piece.

So more experiments in metal shaping to come over the next week or so.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: DavidLaver on 01 February, 2021, 09:26:42 PM

Wow!!!   That's quite a production.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 08 February, 2021, 09:37:30 AM
3 of them are basically finished now (I'd like to drop a tiny weld onto #5 and smooth out the corners).

It doesn't look much different to last time, but the holes are drilled, the shape of #5 got a load of finessing, and I had a bunch of tidying to do before I could get at the workbench (and the drill press). I'm slightly concerned about #3 in that the plastic it's going to be bonded to has "relaxed" and is a bit saggy - will straightening it out and bonding in steel sort that out, or just introduce new cracks further along? Obviously getting rid of the sharp corners should reduce stress risers (I can do that now I'd rediscovered my bench grinder), and I'm thinking I'll run the epoxy out past the steel so that it can provide some reinforcement/encouragement for the plastic.

I've not tried to do any bonding yet because it's freezing in the garage and I don't think epoxy likes the cold all that much.  Also, I only have half a (pair of) tube left and I'm not sure how much I'm going to use just yet - I've ordered some more so I definitely have enough. I might try bonding in as many pieces as I have when it's a bit warmer - I don't think I'm going to finish the bit that joins #2 and #6 and supports the heater controls for a little while as it's quite a complicated shape. It also means I can make sure the epoxy works in a slightly less conspicuous place.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: frankxhv773t on 08 February, 2021, 10:27:02 AM
Your garage sounds like mine. Any switch to a significantly different task requires a day of tetrus style reorganisation.

To spread the load off the end of the metal reinforcements why not lay some fibreglass matting over the join. Another thought is that if you drill a mesh of holes in the steel where the bonding laps over it the resin will get a more thorough grip.

Are you familiar with drilling a round hole at the end of a crack to disperse the stresses and stop the crack extending further?


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 08 February, 2021, 10:46:36 AM
These are all going to be bonded in flat up against a plastic part. But I like the idea of drilling some small holes to allow the resin through like a sort of a plug weld. I'm not convinced that drilling holes to stop crack propagation is applicable on the dash as it's so thin I reckon the crack will just restart the other side of the hole.
I need to get some fibreglass - I suspect that I'm going to end up with a dashboard that is a sort of spaceframe with plastic cladding which could work fine without any plastic at all!  :)

And the working area at the front of the car with the workbench is now all clear, so I won't have to do any stuff moving (until I try to get the car out of the garage, obviously :) ). Tetris is a good analogy - I'm glad the car is so small!


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: SanRemo78 on 08 February, 2021, 01:34:38 PM
Instead of fibreglass have you considered a body adhesive like Sikaflex? It's probably a little easier to work with and might give you a stronger and slightly flexible bond? Whichever route you choose the bond will be stronger if the surfaces are scored and/or perforated.
Guy


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 15 February, 2021, 11:21:12 AM
Fibreglass would be there as a reinforcement as well as an adhesive. I was wondering about Sikaflex or Tiger Seal instead of using epoxy, but I'm not convinced they will give as good a bond, and flexibility isn't the aim (the more the dash flexes, the more likely it is to crack).

I spent a few hours on this on both Saturday and Sunday, and I'm basically one step back! The good news is that the new quilted overalls I ordered mean that spending time in the garage is much more pleasant - now I need to make better use of that time!
I started off trying to work out exactly how to make the bracket that joins the top and bottom of the dash and holds the heater vent, and I cut some steel and bent some steel, and found some box that would fit and was generally making some decent progress. I realised I should probably trial fit #5 with the heating vents present, and when I did that, I discovered that it simply wasn't going to work - the bit at the top that was supposed to hold the screw for the cover section clashes with the heater vents. :(

So I started off making a much simpler piece that would just hold the plastic in the right place and give me a nice sturdy location for everything, so I could make the bit on the other side. I made a simple straight piece with the right sort of bend in the right place, and then I taped that in place and refitted the heater section. And I realised that there was a bit of plastic missing that held all the buttons in the top, and if I put my bracket in the right place, at least I could deal with that. So I cut and drilled and filed and sanded and got another small piece, so there is an L shape, and piece that will sit on top, reinforce it and also bolt up the buttons. (I should have taken a picture at this point, but I was trying to get stuff done.) All that's needed now is to weld them together and trial fit again.
I found my welding helmet, turned on the welder, checked the settings, and discovered the gas bottle was on already. Which was strange, because I try to leave it closed so that there are no leaks, and it's not been used in ages. The regulator seemed to be showing flow (again, strange?) so I tested out the welder, and no gas noise. The regulator didn't change if I turn the dial on it or on the gas bottle, and all the pipes appear to be free from kinks (I can't see behind the welder, but it's not up against the wall). In irritation, I attempted a test weld on something else, but it was horrible and black and splattery and broke far too easily, so I gave up. I think I need to order some new gas.


Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: eog on 16 February, 2021, 09:55:37 AM
May be worth looking at this carbon fiber bonded filler. I have used it on a lotus and after 4 years no stress cracks

https://www.u-pol.com/uk/en-uk/product/upol/fillers/special-surface-repairs/smc-carbon-fibre-reinforced-filler#.YCuVSjJxeUk



Title: Re: Y10 GTie (LHD)
Post by: Duncan23 on 22 February, 2021, 01:15:31 PM
That stuff looks interesting, though the U-Pol version is super expensive. Toolstation own brand isn't much more than regular filler, though I wonder if that means it's also not very good.

I stuck some of the metal reinforcements in over the weekend. It made the dash so much more rigid (there were times I thought it might actually snap in half when I was getting it out), so hopefully it won't rattle itself apart so much when it's actually in the car! I used JB Weld, and it seems to have done a good job bonding the plastic to itself and also metal to plastic. It was realtively this, so it filed slight gaps where the metal pieces weren't perfectly shaped, though it did drip a little bit on one of them. I couldn't do the complex metal bits because I've run out of welding gas - I need to organise getting some more.
I'm not going to flock the dash (yet) because the MOT runs out in a month or so and I don't want to spend even more time on the dash (I need to check the fuel filler area still). Hopefully it will look smart enough and the plastic repair pieces won't be too obvious.  At least I know how to get it out again should I need to do it a second time to make it look better.