Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Fulvia => Topic started by: ICEMAN on 14 June, 2020, 04:43:33 AM



Title: Electric fuel pump
Post by: ICEMAN on 14 June, 2020, 04:43:33 AM
Hello everyone. I am, both, new to Fulvia ownership and new to this forum.
I own a 1974 Fulvia S3 and have decided to upgrade the fuel delivery circuit.
Via a switch under the dashboard, it will allow me to prime the carbs to prevent having to crank continuously until fuel is present.
Iíve ordered a Facet silver top road electric pump, a Filter King, fuel pipe and clamps.

There are many similar topics on this forum, I realise.
It, however, is not clear to me whether to connect said items in series or parallel with the existing mechanical pump (which is in perfect working order).
What are your thoughts ?


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 16 June, 2020, 11:09:57 PM
I'll be interested in responses to this as my Fulvia came with an electric pump which bypassed the mechanical one. Having fitted a new mechanical pump I'm planning to run them in parallel so the electric pump can be used to prime the carbs and then revert to the mechanical one by switching off the electric pump as you describe once it is running. I have some Y pieces to split the fuel line but did wonder if the electric pump will put pressure on the mechanical one in the wrong direction and if there is enough power in it to cause an issue if it does.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 17 June, 2020, 07:52:40 AM
I'll be interested in responses to this as my Fulvia came with an electric pump which bypassed the mechanical one. Having fitted a new mechanical pump I'm planning to run them in parallel so the electric pump can be used to prime the carbs and then revert to the mechanical one by switching off the electric pump as you describe once it is running. I have some Y pieces to split the fuel line but did wonder if the electric pump will put pressure on the mechanical one in the wrong direction and if there is enough power in it to cause an issue if it does.
Just for the record you can do both methods. I started on one car some 15 years ago with the parallel method which was described by Andrea Nistri at the time. The plumbing was a bit of a nightmare to be honest and after thinking about have opted for series plumbing with the electric pump pushing fuel through the mechanical pump. This set up I use for priming. I have other Fulvias that are exclusively electric (Silver top Facet and Filter King set to 3psi), and have deleted to mechanical pump on these cars. For priming only (and a get you home back up) the Facet solid state pump (rather than the full blown Silver Top) is just fine and a lot cheaper. No need to regulate this for priming.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: ICEMAN on 17 June, 2020, 08:00:25 AM
Does anyone know if the Filter King can be placed between the fuel tank and both pumps.
Will it regulate the pressure in this configuration ?


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: simonandjuliet on 17 June, 2020, 08:12:57 AM
I fitted a pump recently on the GT see link : https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9921.msg82437#msg82437 (https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9921.msg82437#msg82437)

Personally I would rather regulate the pressure after the electric and/or the pumps


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 17 June, 2020, 08:20:52 AM
Does anyone know if the Filter King can be placed between the fuel tank and both pumps.
Will it regulate the pressure in this configuration ?
No! I would advise a cheap plastic replaceable fuel filter between the tank and the electric pump and then the filter king. I recommend the plastic filter is accessible as you may need to change it a few times if the car has not had much used and is still the original fuel tank due to dirt coming through.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 17 June, 2020, 10:53:28 AM
Just for the record you can do both methods. I started on one car some 15 years ago with the parallel method which was described by Andrea Nistri at the time. The plumbing was a bit of a nightmare to be honest and after thinking about have opted for series plumbing with the electric pump pushing fuel through the mechanical pump. This set up I use for priming. I have other Fulvias that are exclusively electric (Silver top Facet and Filter King set to 3psi), and have deleted to mechanical pump on these cars. For priming only (and a get you home back up) the Facet solid state pump (rather than the full blown Silver Top) is just fine and a lot cheaper. No need to regulate this for priming.

Thanks Tim, just for clarity, do you turn off the electric pump once it has primed the system? I was concerned that the mechanical pump would struggle to pull the fuel through the electric one which was why I was thinking of going for a parallel set up.

Where are people getting the filter king? I bought a couple of plastic inline filters but have wondered about a filter king once the system has flushed through.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 17 June, 2020, 12:25:22 PM

Thanks Tim, just for clarity, do you turn off the electric pump once it has primed the system? I was concerned that the mechanical pump would struggle to pull the fuel through the electric one which was why I was thinking of going for a parallel set up.

Yes switch in side car and 4A fused supply on ignition circuit.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: fay66 on 17 June, 2020, 08:16:08 PM
I turn my electric priming pump off once the carbs are primed, my pump is adjacent to the tank, so my filter king fits between the pumps.
I tried using a plastic filter after 21 years off the road and a 2 year restoration, then after most of the rubbish had been filtered out, I fitted a filter king.
Got mine from demon tweeks but I think they still sell them, get the one with the glass bowl.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: ICEMAN on 18 June, 2020, 06:22:44 AM
I have decided to delete the mechanical pump completely.
The Facet silver top will be wired via a switch under the dash for security reasons and via an inertia switch for safety reasons.
The Filter King will regulate the fuel pressure to 3 psi prior to the carbs.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 18 June, 2020, 07:24:40 AM
I have decided to delete the mechanical pump completely.
The Facet silver top will be wired via a switch under the dash for security reasons and via an inertia switch for safety reasons.
The Filter King will regulate the fuel pressure to 3 psi prior to the carbs.
Not that Facet pumps are unreliable but I would carry a second if you are going to rely on it. Good idea for an isolating switch for working on the car when you do not want petrol being pumped, but the ignition circuits live.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: ICEMAN on 19 June, 2020, 08:03:50 AM
Thanks for the advice. As a Lancia newbie I appreciate it.
Will I need a support vehicle following me with a set of critical spares, just in case  😂
Only joking.
Besides a spare fuel pump, which spares do you suggest I carry in case of breakdown ?


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 19 June, 2020, 08:33:16 AM
Thanks for the advice. As a Lancia newbie I appreciate it.
Will I need a support vehicle following me with a set of critical spares, just in case  😂
Only joking.
Besides a spare fuel pump, which spares do you suggest I carry in case of breakdown ?
AA card! Only suggested a spare fuel pump as it is an easy fix at the side of the street. I generally travel light with a simple set of tools, a spare coil, fan belt, plugs, a small multimeter and circuit diagram. Oh and oil and antifreeze mix. If going abroad it would add a few more hard to get easily spares (depending on the age of the existing parts) such as water pump, alternator, and head gasket.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: chriswgawne on 19 June, 2020, 10:26:07 AM
And (slightly tongue in cheek) a mobile phone! And more seriously a Lithium battery pack with a reasonable capacity for the car, phone and laptop.
Chris


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: fay66 on 19 June, 2020, 01:41:29 PM
And (slightly tongue in cheek) a mobile phone! And more seriously a Lithium battery pack with a reasonable capacity for the car, phone and laptop.
Chris
Recovery membership with a mobile phone will cope with most real emergencies, antifreeze mix, oil, engine and gearbox, WD40, tool kit, tow rope, torch, fuses, fan belt, electric tyre pump, pair of Magnetic flashing emergency breakdown lights as no hazard flashers.
But a lot more comprehensive when abroad.
With the priming pump fitted, I don't need to carry a spare fuel pump as the priming pump is for emergency use as well.
Brian
8227  8)


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: ICEMAN on 19 June, 2020, 03:03:36 PM
And (slightly tongue in cheek) a mobile phone! And more seriously a Lithium battery pack with a reasonable capacity for the car, phone and laptop.
Chris
Recovery membership with a mobile phone will cope with most real emergencies, antifreeze mix, oil, engine and gearbox, WD40, tool kit, tow rope, torch, fuses, fan belt, electric tyre pump, pair of Magnetic flashing emergency breakdown lights as no hazard flashers.
But a lot more comprehensive when abroad.
With the priming pump fitted, I don't need to carry a spare fuel pump as the priming pump is for emergency use as well.
Brian
8227  8)

When I read ďengine and gearboxĒ I thought how am I fitting those in the boot. 🤣
Then I twigged you meant oil.

Thanks for your advice.
I hope I donít ever have to carry anything other than spares. Iím running out of boot space.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: ICEMAN on 22 June, 2020, 03:03:52 PM
Managed to fit new electric pump and filter/regulator. Isolation switch and inertia switch installed also .
No more cranking to get fuel to the carbs.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: Richard Fridd on 22 June, 2020, 04:34:27 PM
I like the gauge. What is it's range? The ones I have seen seem to go to over 100 PSI


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: ICEMAN on 22 June, 2020, 04:37:24 PM
I like the gauge. What is it's range? The ones I have seen seem to go to over 100 PSI

Itís 0 to 14 psi. My Fulvia is set at 3 psi


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 22 June, 2020, 05:46:03 PM
I personally would remove the gauge after setting....


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 06 July, 2020, 02:00:49 PM
I got round to starting my engine yesterday and having put the electric and mechanical pump in series (electric first, then mechanical) the electric pump didn't get anything through so I changed the pipes to just leave the electrical pump and at least got it running. Not sure if I've done something wrong or the electric pump on my car isn't powerful enough but I'll redo the pipes to put them in parallel and see how that works.

It was running quite badly so a few other things to sort out first anyway. I shared a video of the engine running in the club Facebook group - https://www.facebook.com/andysherratt/videos/10158636112582188/ if anyone is interested. Pretty sure it was only firing on three cylinders and wouldn't idle, but running is an improvement!!


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 06 July, 2020, 02:34:49 PM
Possibly accidentally plumbed the mech pump back to front??


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 06 July, 2020, 07:14:50 PM
Possibly accidentally plumbed the mech pump back to front??

I did wonder, but don't think I have. It will be tomorrow before I get chance to check but will do that!!


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 08 July, 2020, 07:15:21 AM
Possibly accidentally plumbed the mech pump back to front??

I did wonder, but don't think I have. It will be tomorrow before I get chance to check but will do that!!

I did that once with my Beta. Not as hard as you might think.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 08 July, 2020, 11:17:56 AM
I'd got the pipes the right way round but found that the one from the metal pipe to the pump which I thought was quite new was not in good condition inside. I've replaced it but not had chance to check properly yet.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 08 October, 2020, 08:48:00 PM

Thanks Tim, just for clarity, do you turn off the electric pump once it has primed the system? I was concerned that the mechanical pump would struggle to pull the fuel through the electric one which was why I was thinking of going for a parallel set up.

Yes switch in side car and 4A fused supply on ignition circuit.

To revive an older post, having been struggling to get my car running (successful this evening) with electrical rather than fuel issues I did realise that the electric fuel pump was connected via the +ve terminal on the coil. Obviously this gives an ignition controlled circuit but it doesn't seem ideal to me so wondered what the recommendation is for the best place to wire it to.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: nistri on 09 October, 2020, 01:09:03 PM
Using a piggyback lucar connector to the first fuse on the left in the fuse box. Andrea


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 09 October, 2020, 08:54:40 PM
Using a piggyback lucar connector to the first fuse on the left in the fuse box. Andrea

Thanks!


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 09 December, 2020, 11:48:04 PM
Using a piggyback lucar connector to the first fuse on the left in the fuse box. Andrea

Thanks!

This hasn't been a priority job but for the last couple of evenings I have been trying to sort the wiring for the fuel pump. It was previously connected directly to the live terminal on the coil so came on with the ignition and was permanently on. I wanted to put a switch in the circuit so have run a wire through into the car finishing in the fuse block area. When I connect it to fuse 9 (the one on the left of the block), put the ignition on and then switch the pump on it turns the ignition off, and the pump doesn't operate. The pump works fine with the switch I have if I connect the wire on either fuses 7 or 8 (as does everything else whilst it is connected there). Any ideas why it might do what it does when connected to fuse 9?

I also tried it connected to the blue/black wire on the connection block near the ignition switch and it did the same thing of turning the ignition off, and with it connected as it originally was the ignition no longer works. The only change I am aware of making within the ignition system is fitting a heavy duty external condenser to replace the one inside the distributor, I'm not sure how that would affect it but maybe it has.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: Jaydub on 10 December, 2020, 10:28:08 AM
Hi Andy, it sounds like the fuel pump isn`t properly earthed and when you switch it on it puts the ignition circuit to earth maybe? If the pump is rubber mounted make sure the earth wire jumps the rubber bobbin and connects the pump mounting bracket to the body. The condenser isn`t the problem as that is on the negative side of the coil.
Recheck your wiring.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 10 December, 2020, 11:54:34 AM
Hi Andy, it sounds like the fuel pump isn`t properly earthed and when you switch it on it puts the ignition circuit to earth maybe? If the pump is rubber mounted make sure the earth wire jumps the rubber bobbin and connects the pump mounting bracket to the body. The condenser isn`t the problem as that is on the negative side of the coil.
Recheck your wiring.

Thanks for the suggestion, I did wonder but puzzled as it was working before and isn't now. I didn't install the pump and can see that it is earthed so will try to check it this evening if I get chance. I'm getting close to a first drive and impatient for it but want to get little things like this sorted first!!


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: Neil on 10 December, 2020, 12:46:32 PM
I would avoid connecting the fuel pump to the coil, use the fuse box connection as recommended, if you do connect to the coil I suspect you will have some issues with fuel starvation and bad running as experienced by at least one LMC member which took many months to resolve.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 10 December, 2020, 02:48:19 PM
I would avoid connecting the fuel pump to the coil, use the fuse box connection as recommended, if you do connect to the coil I suspect you will have some issues with fuel starvation and bad running as experienced by at least one LMC member which took many months to resolve.

It was connected to the coil when I bought the car, I think it had been done as a quick way to get the car running before sale having been stood for a very long time. I'm wanting to change it from that as I know it isn't ideal, and it is the revised solution that is causing the issues, but I there is something else wrong which has probably been highlighted by the change I'm making.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: Jaydub on 10 December, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Neil, I can`t agree with your suggestion that connecting to the coil will be a problem as connecting it to Fuse 9 is the same thing. The coil is switched from Fuse 9 when the ignition is turned on. If someone had a fuel starvation issue there must have been something else associated with it other than being connected to the coil. Personally I would use Fuse 7 for the supply, with an extra inline fuse if you want to be doubly sure. That way you can run the pump independant of the ignition switch if you wanted to for checking float levels or.....


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 10 December, 2020, 04:13:47 PM
Neil, I can`t agree with your suggestion that connecting to the coil will be a problem as connecting it to Fuse 9 is the same thing. The coil is switched from Fuse 9 when the ignition is turned on. If someone had a fuel starvation issue there must have been something else associated with it other than being connected to the coil. Personally I would use Fuse 7 for the supply, with an extra inline fuse if you want to be doubly sure. That way you can run the pump independant of the ignition switch if you wanted to for checking float levels or.....
I think it is wiser to have the supply controlled by the ignition as a minimum...I can see also the attraction to wire it through an oil pressure switch or gravity switch but have never done these. always use an extra 4 amp fuse off the supply one chooses.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 10 December, 2020, 05:52:34 PM
Neil, I can`t agree with your suggestion that connecting to the coil will be a problem as connecting it to Fuse 9 is the same thing. The coil is switched from Fuse 9 when the ignition is turned on. If someone had a fuel starvation issue there must have been something else associated with it other than being connected to the coil. Personally I would use Fuse 7 for the supply, with an extra inline fuse if you want to be doubly sure. That way you can run the pump independant of the ignition switch if you wanted to for checking float levels or.....
I think it is wiser to have the supply controlled by the ignition as a minimum...I can see also the attraction to wire it through an oil pressure switch or gravity switch but have never done these. always use an extra 4 amp fuse off the supply one chooses.

As it works off fuses 7 & 8 I did wonder about connecting it there but feel the added safety of the ignition circuit would be better although I can't think of a specific reason why! As it seems there is another issue I will resolve it before connecting and do have an inline fuse as part of the wiring I am trying to do. I am using the switch by the heater vent which was unused - I've even got the light to work so it mirrors the heated rear window switch - I've checked by using a new switch I had bought for the purpose and get the same result to the switch isn't the issue.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 10 December, 2020, 11:15:02 PM
I think I've found the issue. The earthing all looked fine with the pump, and it is plastic bodied with integral mounts so couldn't really earth itself other than through the wire. What I noticed was that as I touched the wire to fuse 9 I could hear a faint click from under the dash. It seems it was the small round relay shown in the photo here. I haven't found it on the wiring diagram but it has two red wires to one terminal, two black to another and a white one to the third. I've not done a proper job of cleaning the terminals (my fingers were pretty frozen by the time I found it!!) but moving them and spraying with contact cleaner the pump now works connected to fuse 9 with an inline switch - and the ignition stays on when the pump is switched on! Anyone know what the relay does?

(https://spa-pa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/IMG_20201210_215024_2-scaled-e1607641687167.jpg)


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 11 December, 2020, 08:00:25 AM
Handbrake warning light. So if handbrake on the red warning light should (invariable doesnt) flash due to this tin can. Easy to open up and tweake/ clean contacts. Not sure it is the source of your problems.....


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 11 December, 2020, 09:31:13 AM
Handbrake warning light. So if handbrake on the red warning light should (invariable doesnt) flash due to this tin can. Easy to open up and tweake/ clean contacts. Not sure it is the source of your problems.....

Thanks Tim. The handbrake light has looked erratic but I haven't specifically noticed it recently as the handbrake is off whilst I try to sort other things. I couldn't figure how that would affect the fuse 9 connections but it did seem to - on testing last night I was getting the same outcome of the ignition circuit going off if I tried using the cigarette lighter, after getting it working with the fuel pump the cigarette lighter worked as did the circuit for the heated rear window.  ??? ??? :-\


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: Neil on 11 December, 2020, 09:48:44 AM
Definitely the handbrake relay, mine failed and was permanently on when the handbrake was applied, did not flash, I found a replacement same as Fiat X1/9 if that helps.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 11 December, 2020, 11:52:41 AM
Thanks Neil. It might just be the connections to it but I need to investigate properly - my fingers were pretty numb from cold last night when I found that it made the difference I was searching for so I gave up at that stage as I was happy to have the things I wanted working!! Useful to know there is another application as it could help with availability.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: peteracs on 11 December, 2020, 01:39:23 PM
Hi

Probably the same as used on the Betas as well.

Peter


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: lancialulu on 11 December, 2020, 01:51:58 PM
I think you may have earthing issue which is dragging the 12v down. I am working on a car that does just that when using the indicators - nice!


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: Jaydub on 11 December, 2020, 03:10:04 PM
As Tim suggested, possible earth issues. Ref. wiring diagram, N0.53 ( Handbrake warning lamp relay) & No. 64 (Flasher relay) are both fed via the Red cables from Fuse 9, Ignition switched.. Black cables from 53 feed 66 (Plug in socket) & 21 (Low Brake Fluid level switch). Check earths on those.


Title: Re: Electric fuel pump
Post by: andyps on 15 December, 2020, 11:09:47 PM
I've had time to look at the wiring again this evening. I properly cleaned all the connectors on the handbrake light relay and where there are some wires earthing on the steering column mount. The ignition works correctly every time, the cigarette lighter works, the fuel pump works off the switch that I connected it through. The light comes on on the heater rear window switch too (my heater rear window is missing a connection on one end on the glass so I didn't bother with a test lamp across the wires to see if there was current). And the handbrake warning light works correctly - or at least as correctly as it ever has, the switch seems a little sensitive.

I'm not convinced why those connections have made the difference, I'm pleased they seem to have but I wonder if it might be that when fiddling with those wires I moved something else. The one set of connections I haven't done anything with are those on the ignition switch and column stalks. I'll take the column shrouds off and clean those up soon.