Lancia Motor Club

Buy, Sell and Search => Lancia vehicles for sale => Topic started by: frankxhv773t on 03 June, 2020, 10:00:15 AM



Title: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 03 June, 2020, 10:00:15 AM
Fascinatingly https://www.hcservices.be have the chassis of a WW1 Lancia armoured car for sale. Two examples were previously known to survive but this is the remains of a pair given to the Czech Italian Legion at the end of WW1 which served in the Czech army before being dismantled in the 1930s. The chassis were used as technical training aids and one was known to still be in existence in 1939. The vendors speculate it is one of only 6 of this chassis built but that has to be wrong. Best sources suggest 25 were built on the original early pattern chassis.

AT 30,000 euros it isn't cheap, but what price unobtanium?


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 03 June, 2020, 10:56:46 AM
Interesting...you can go get the body too:
http://blog.lanciainfo.com/?p=2674


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 05 June, 2020, 07:14:41 PM
My reading of the advert is that the body is not available. As the bodies were dismantled in 1935 and were particularly high grade steel I suspect they would have been recycled during WW".


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 05 June, 2020, 09:00:52 PM
I spoke with the seller last year, and he sent me pics of a body he had found. Remarkably it was   on a military base in Afghanistan - as shown in the blog posting. Now, getting it off the base is one heck of a challenge....


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 06 June, 2020, 11:24:10 AM
Only one Lancia armoured car is known to have gone to Afghanistan, gifted to the king of Afghanistan in 1928. It was recovered from Camp Warehouse quite a number of years ago and is now in the military museum in Dresden. It is a 1918 model 1ZM in substantially complete condition which would not be the correct body for a the Czech armoured car. It would be fascinating to know how another 1Z or it's body ended up in Afghanistan.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dilambdaman on 06 June, 2020, 04:30:44 PM
Deat cert winner of the Odd Ball Trophy at the AGM Concours! :o

Robin.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 06 June, 2020, 09:17:26 PM
Frank - great info. Is your third shot of the Warehouse vehicle, since moved and if. Understand you correctly, restored? Thatís the same shot as I was told is in Afghanistan.

It seems that the info of the Afghanistan one is old news, and not currently valid. Is that how you see it too?


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dikappa on 07 June, 2020, 07:05:54 AM
It's around my corner (some 10 km's away), and I will go see it shortly.
However it is more a collection of parts, and will need a hugh amount of items made or sourced before any serious restoration can be attempted.  I think the asking price is wishfull thinking.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: peteracs on 07 June, 2020, 07:54:11 AM
No photo of the complete chassis just the part with the tipo number, wonder why?

Peter


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dikappa on 07 June, 2020, 08:40:58 AM
some pictures I received.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 07 June, 2020, 09:22:22 AM
Yes Gordon, it was recovered in 2007 to the Dresden museum. I don't think it has been restored, though it is substantially complete. My picture of it inside a building I take to be its' present condition on display.

The Czech chassis for sale in Belgium is possibly what Ansaldo began with before constructing the armoured car which, history aside, is little more than a 1Z military truck chassis. Ansaldo are said to have strengthened the truck chassis to carry the extra weight of the armour.

As to "old news" I think it's a case of not believing everything a used car salesman tells you. Their speculation that it is one of only 6 chassis is, to me, wishful thinking as all 20 of the first series were on this chassis as well as the first part of the second series production. 


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Roland on 06 July, 2020, 03:16:24 PM
Interesting BUT in these photos, the Autoblinda Italian built armoured cars, still clad with the remains of armour, the is engine clearly visible and it can be seen to be a fixed head (Head and block cast as one), which was fitted to early 1Z's built from 1915 until 1920 using engines like that in the Theta. Both the early 1Z and Theta had the gear and hand brake levers mounted on the right hand side of the chassis. 
When the Kappa was introduced in 1919, the main changes were the fitting of an engine with a detachable cylinder head and a gearbox with gear and brake levers mounted directly on top of it, and these features were carried into a 'new' 1Z and these can be clearly seen on this chassis for sale.  As it was not until 1922 or 23  that the Greek letter names were allocated to chassis built earlier, I suspect that the 1Z nomenclature continued to be used for this modified chassis, the Triota name being used from 1922/3 on.   These 'Triota' chassis, clad locally with armour, were used in Northern Ireland during the 'Troubles' and for some year after - the last ones were sold out of service only in the 1960's or '70's. 
I feel sure that this chassis is one of these latter.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dikappa on 06 July, 2020, 04:21:07 PM
I'm going to have a look at it tomorrow, so if anyone has specific questions, let me know!

I'm not going to buy it, but just out of interest...


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 06 July, 2020, 05:46:48 PM
Just wondering. If this is the chassis that came out of Afghanistan, what happened to the damaged motor when it was there? Is this a replacement motor?



Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 06 July, 2020, 11:22:48 PM
No. The Afghanistan car is a Series 3 car, largely complete and is now in a museum in Dresden, still with the damaged engine. This chassis is one of the two Series 1 cars cars given to Czechoslovakia in 1918 and dismantled in the 1930s. The chassis survived in a technical training school.

More pictures would be useful, the sort that could be referenced against the plans that Ron Francis has. Being an early version it may effectively be little more than a Zeta truck chassis. I haven't come across any of those that have survived but it would be interesting to be able to check what if any differences there are.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 07 July, 2020, 12:26:29 AM
Interesting. Here are some pics of the chassis. I think its this one...



Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 07 July, 2020, 10:45:38 AM
Thankyou for the pictures. Did they say anything about why the engine is out of it now?

Here is a picture of the underside of this or its sister car following an upset whilst in service with the Czech Army.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 07 July, 2020, 11:58:02 AM
Thankyou for the pictures. Did they say anything about why the engine is out of it now?

Here is a picture of the underside of this or its sister car following an upset whilst in service with the Czech Army.

Where do you find these pictures! Incredible.

The pictures I got from the guy who said he was selling the car. He did mention it came out of Czechoslovakia, and then mentioned the body in Afghanistan. Mistakenly put the two together. So no discussion of the engine change - wasn't even aware of it. Although... seem to recall some discussion of looking for a gearbox - maybe that was the reason?


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 07 July, 2020, 03:56:02 PM
I wasn't suggesting there was an engine change, merely that the pictures at the start of the thread show it with the engine in place and now it has gone. There would have to be some reason for separating the engine from the chassis and being curious by nature I am wondering what the reason is.

As to where I find pictures, just by obsessively trawling the internet. There is a highly detailed account of the history of the Czech cars (I have translated it as best I can and it runs to 9 pages) at rotanazdar.cz/?p=8325 which has the best collection of pictures I have seen. Unfortunately the first section contains the usual misinformation about production numbers but I have more convincing sources for that.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dikappa on 08 July, 2020, 03:45:03 PM
Some things became clear now. The vendor is restoring a Theta which had a Kappa gearbox fitted. (with central gearshift os opposed to side shift)
So in fact the 1Z was purchased for the gearbox, and is now fitted with the 'ex Theta' gearbox and engine, while quite a few other bits were also used for the Theta.

The 1Z is thus deprived from it's original components....it also lacks quite a few things.  On the plus side the Theta will make a magnificent car.
But I wonder if anyone is ever going to attack the 1Z project.  There is quite a bit of stuff, but there is also a lot not there, it will be a very daring project, and certainly not financially viable, even if one got the project for free....


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: donw on 08 July, 2020, 04:40:31 PM
Any pictures or details of the Theta chassis number etc?


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dikappa on 09 July, 2020, 11:44:16 AM
I did not make pictures, but it is a red 'racer' with an oil barrel like fuel tank behind the seats, and came from Australia a few years ago, and was sold by Nick Benwell if I'm not mistaken.
But it had a Kappa gearbox and engine, and apparently quite a few parts missing.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 09 July, 2020, 07:12:35 PM
I came across this as well https://www.autobelle.it/it/a/Vendo_Motore_Lancia_Kappa_1919-1922_275807.xhtml

Whilst it say Kappa 1919_1922 engine there seem to be pictures of two different engines, two bladed fan and four bladed fan. Would I be right in thinking the two bladed fan is Kappa and the four bladed fan something earlier?


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: mikeC on 10 July, 2020, 07:32:10 AM
One side-valve, one overhead cam!


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: donw on 10 July, 2020, 05:08:52 PM
Koen  The Australian car sold by Nick was a Kappa.
 
Frank

The 2 engines the second one with 2 blade fan has detachable head must be post Theta.

Thetas have a 2 blade fan.  On the 4 blade engine ant see any teeth on the flywheel or starter motor so it is probable the commercial version for a Iota.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dikappa on 11 July, 2020, 08:39:49 PM
Maybe someone should go explain them then, it now has a Theta engine, and they removed the Kappa bulkhead and made another one so they are doingt every effort to make it a Theta.....


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Roland on 12 July, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
No this 1Z for sale is not a Zeta which had the gearbox in unit with the rear axle at the back. The 1Z for sale is 1Z Triota  as it has gear and brake levers on top of gearbox and detachable head engine, date chassis made 1921 to 1923 period.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Roland on 12 July, 2020, 12:39:10 PM
The DiKappa Vet number 84, which John Nicholson ran in the UK was ex Aus and is still in the UK.  It was found by Aus ALR member Jack Cocks   and the chassis was restored to near original  and was running when I visited Jack place in Aus in the mid/late 1970's.  I was given a ride on it (before the body Koen mentions was made) and I have some pics of this event and of the DiKappa engine.  It came to a LMC UK meeting at Castle Coombe and I have some photos of it there but I cannot remember the event's date. When last I heard of it, it still had it's original DiKappa engine (I have several pics of I the engine).
The only other DiKappa I know of is in Turin and was not running when I last had news of it, although I was told it had a body and was very original but minus some parts at that time.
Nick Benwell brought several Lancia's  into the UK from Aus mostly Lambda's but a few Kappa's as well.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 12 July, 2020, 01:11:55 PM
I have the feeling things are getting confused. The picture at the start of the thread has a side mounted gear lever and the chassis is marked Tipo 1Z. If as originally suggested it is an armoured car chassis that came out of Czechoslovakia it would have to have begun its life in 1915 as a series 1 Ansaldo-Lancia 1Z on what is basically a model 1912 1Z truck chassis.

The Czech armoured cars ended their days dismantled as instructional chassis in technical schools. It seems perfectly conceivable that a non standard engine has been installed at some point over the years.

Does not Dikappa say the vendor wanted the side operated gearbox for another project and it is they that have put a centre operated gear box in the chassis.

Clearly it has had a chequered life and its history may no longer be discernible.




Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Roland on 12 July, 2020, 02:34:37 PM
Yes, strong possibility of confusion! - caused by the different chassis in this longish blog I expect: to list those of which photos have been shown. (Except for blog about the DiKappa chassis with a Kappa engine)

1. 3 June by Frankx - pics of Autoblinda's with armour in active use
2. 6 June by Frankx - Pics of Autoblinda's in use and as remains two of which show fixed engines installed so early 1Z - on chassis from 1915 to ?1920
3. 7 June by DiKappa -1Z chassis for sale WITH ENGINE and GEARBOX- detachable head centre change gearbox so later type 1Z - post ?1920
4. 7 July by GG - 1Z chassis ex Czech Republic with ONLY A GEARBOX (no engine). This gearbox is side change so chassis is early 1Z 1915-?1920 (I can confirm that this was bought for the side change gearbox which is being fitted to a car chassis with an Iota type fixed head engine.  So a different chassis to number 3 above.
All these comments assume that the engines or gearboxes have NOT been changed from the original build. And I can confirm that this can be done between Theta and Kappa/ DiKappa designs and 1Z early and late without any real problems.

SO there are two different chassis under discussion.  Sorry but I cannot be more precise on the dates of manufacture of 1Z as I have conflicting info on this - the only confirmed date being the start of 1Z production as 1915. It seems likely that these engine/gearbox design changes followed the same changes as the Car chassis - Theta fixed head side change from late 1913 to 18 , Kappa fixed head central change in 1919.  There is also the 1ZM which is mentioned in some modern literature - and possibly in some period literature as from 1912 to 1915 and has an engine which appears to be the same as the Theta fixed head design (and so predated the car).


While I try to keep a register of pre Lambda cars - some 68 in my records - I don't have details of commercials unless I know the owners.



Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 12 July, 2020, 11:00:42 PM
I am writing something for Geoff Goldberg on the armoured cars and, whilst there are many conflicting sources, some of the history seems to be falling into place.

Both chassis pictured appear to have the same pattern of worn paint on the bulkhead which is why I assumed them to be the same one appearing with different combinations of engine and gearbox. I don't think any clarity is going to emerge though.



Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 13 July, 2020, 04:37:04 PM
Just to put this in context - I made a blog post on the 1Z some time ago, with (what was thought to be then) a lot of detail. Frank has gone into this more carefully. He is preparing a better description with a lot of great detail.... which will be happily posted. Now, if we could only find more 1Zs....


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: Dikappa on 13 July, 2020, 06:02:58 PM
Frank,

You are correct, it is definitely the chassis Geoff fotographed earlier.  We checked the wheelbase and being 3350mm it is definitely one of the early truck chassis.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: vigzag on 13 July, 2020, 07:47:52 PM
Blueprint of chassis for 1ZM 35HP 1916


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: vigzag on 13 July, 2020, 07:57:06 PM
Blueprint of 1Z truck for comparison


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 13 July, 2020, 11:52:19 PM
Brilliant, thankyou. I do have to observe though that the plan you say is for the 1ZM is actually marked as for Autocannone Sa 75 AV rather than Autoblinda or automitragliatrice. Is it sound to consider the the same thing? Somewhere I have seen reference to a "special chassis for automitragliatrice" and there are multiple references to later armoured cars being supplied with a strengthened chassis. The autocannone is said to have been a short lived project which should post date Ansaldo Lancia armoured car production. The plan is dated 28/1/1918.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: vigzag on 14 July, 2020, 08:21:14 AM
Frank, I had assumed the M was for 'Militare' and hence covered all military applications in one shape or form obviously you have more knowledge on that than i do. The blueprint posted is for the autocanon as it has what appears to be the mounting hole for the canon at the back which may not be there on other versions. If you would like the photos in higher resolution let me know and i will send them to you.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 14 July, 2020, 08:48:03 AM
I would hesitate to describe myself as "more knowledgeable", just deeper into the complexities and confusion than most people.

There is a question mark in my mind over the "M" being for "military" for the following reasons.

1) The armoured cars are universally referred to as "1Z" for the early ones and "1ZM" for the later ones. An armoured car can never have been anything but military.

2) The "1Z" autocarri is sometimes described as a civilian truck with a militarised version designated "1ZM" but other sources say this truck was specifically developed for the military in 1912 during the Italo-Turkish War so , again, would only ever have been military. The other possibility, which would make sense in the context of the armoured cars, is that it stands for "modificato" as in "modified".

The various plans do indicate though that the "1Z" designation was still in use in 1918 well after the original truck is said to have gone out of production replaced by the Jota.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: GG on 14 July, 2020, 09:32:48 AM
Looking at the titles on the 1916 drawing - does the handwritten date look like 1916 or 1918? The latter, while odd, is not out of the question. Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks to Colin for posting from his lovely library.


Title: Re: Lancia 1Z armoured car chassis for sale
Post by: frankxhv773t on 14 July, 2020, 06:25:22 PM
On the one hand it doesn't look anything like the preceding 8 whilst on the other hand I can't see how you would form a 6 that way.

However my understanding is that the autocanone was only proposed n 1917 and realised in 1918. The caption on the attached picture describes it as experimental in July 1918.