Lancia Motor Club

Hi Folks,
It might seem a bit trivial in such trying times to be talking car colours but it’s distracting from all the very sad news around. If anyone out there is or has family or friends affected then you have my best wishes.

Anyway on to the subject of Lancia colours. I have two Series 1 Berlina GTEs both LHD, both 1969, and both imported from Italy. Both also in generally very good condition. The most recent purchase is in the colour scheme Bianco Saratoga with blue cloth (panno blue) interior. The seats are in terrible condition but I hope to be able complete re-upholstery back to original soon. Anyway no mystery with that car’s colour scheme, it’s consistent with Lancia catalogue information and a few other examples with same colour scheme are easily seen after a google search both Berlina and coupe.

The other car, the first one I bought is more complicated and probably not in original colour. Here is a photo of the car from the sale details from 2016. The interior is black vinyl, (TVE Nero) in good condition and no doubt the result of re-upholstery in the past.

When at first I bought the car, my first Lancia, I believed it to be white, but looking at it side by side with the Bianco Saratoga car (see photos of both cars in my garage) it’s obvious that the first car is not white.

I would like to know what you guys think the colour is. I’m pretty sure it is one of the varieties of Ivory (Avorio), but having researched to the best of my ability I’m also pretty sure that Avorio was not a Lancia Series 1 Fulvia Berlina colour. It is most likely to be Avorio Antico than any other variety. Avorio Santa Anita, a Fulvia sport colour is more yellow, but Avorio Chantilly is another candidate. See colour chart snips.
As I said none of those colours are known to be Series 1 Fulvia Berlina colours so it seems likely that the car was repainted at some stage in its life. Not totally surprising for a 50 yr old car. I should go looking in out of the way places for original colour. Does anyone know which part of the car would be the easiest to look at for signs of old colour?

I should say that I’m not going to change the colour of the car but it looks like if it had been an original colour then Lancia would not have offered it with black vinyl interior. TVE Cuolo (bizzarly vinyl leather as far as I can tell) being the most likely scheme. But having said that it doesn’t look bad with the black interior. Final photo.

Ok so apologies because the forum wouldn’t let me attach the photos I wanted to with the first post so I suspect there is a number or size limit so I’ll try to do it in batches.

Cheers Tom

Two more photos.

And more

Last one

Arvorio chantilly was a Lancia colour for the GTE. Arvorio antico is the cream colour specified for the steel wheels of a lot of Lancias in the 60’s

Hi Tim, thanks for that quick response. I was hoping you would have an answer.

Do you have a reference colour chart for the Berlina GTE?, and it would be good to know what the catalogue said about matching interior colours. I’m probably wrong on my contention then that TVE Nero was not an original interior colour for the car.

Do you know if the list of available colours for the Berlina GTE differed from the contemporary 2C?

Cheers

Stay safe

Tom

The quality of vinyl used by Lancia for the interiors of S1 Fulvia Berlinas was very high and 60 years later is usually in very good condition. I think black vinyl was the norm for light coloured GTEs judging by the cars advertised for sale in Italy. The only problem is that the seat stitching rots and the inner foam crumbles. We have recently had our GTE front seats completely  refoamed and restitched by a !ocal trimmer.I
As to co!our combinations and materials (and metric/imperial instrumenfs) I think we were still in the age when one could specify exactly what was wanted when ordering a new car from Lancia. .
Our aluminium Fulvia Sport was collected from Turin  by a Brit working in Rome and  was ordered with Imperial instruments but of course was lhd.......and our GTE was ordered by a Swiss gentleman of Zurich with Metric instruments but right hand drive  and spent its whole life before us in Switzerland.
Chris

Hi Chris,
Thanks for your input. That makes good sense that you could have whatever colour combination you asked for. After all Lancias were not inexpensive cars even in Italy.
As for your GTE it might be that the Swiss  owner previously drove a RHD car like a series 1 Appia. They were RHD were they not...and he just was used to that.

I’m positive the seats on my Avorio GTE have been retrimmed, and the foam seems to give decent support. Not so the Bianco Saratoga car. The seats are in shocking condition and the foam will need to be repaired or replaced on the front seat cushions.
Are you in the UK now during this period? Wherever you are stay safe.
Maybe you could help with the wanted part I put another post on today for the radio insert on the dash.

Regards

Tom

Tom
The GTE shared paint codes with the 2C but also had a few metalic and shades of blue paints shared with the coupe.

If you remove the back seat squab you may be lucky, as my 2c was all original paint and it was body colour behind there, as well as finding  the job number in chalk.
As Chris says the original vinyl is really good uality, I'm always being asked is mine leather, or that the re - trim looks good, so I wouldn't be surprised if its original.
I had my front cushions taken apart and re stitched 20 years ago, but one is going again.
Brian
8227  8)

Thanks Brian for your reply.
That’s a good idea to look under the rear seat. I’m not where the cars are at the moment but I’ll be able to look when I return. I have also come to realise from other posts that there might be a colour tag...in the glove compartment I believe so I’ll check that too.
If as Tim advises Avorio Chantilly is an original colour for the Berlina GTE then it’s likely that the car is in original colour which is a nice thought. As far as the seats are concerned I’m thinking that the seats were indeed probably black vinyl..for one thing the armrests match the seats so although they could have been recoloured or replaced it kind of supports the idea that the car is in its original colour combination. It would have been nice to see that in a reference but I’m happy to work on that basis.
I also think that on both my cars the wheels are same colour as the body. I think that’s the right thing. If the car was green or blue then the ‘correct’ colour of Avorio Antico would work but for a whitish body then wheels of a slightly different colour might be more original but it just looks quirky to my eyes....see photo.

I've seen many variations in colour and trim material used on Series I Berlinas from Italy and elsewhere, whereas we only seemed to have had vinyl here.
Early Berlinas such as my 2c, had the door armrests, the door pads, and the pockets in the footwell in the same colour and material as the seats.
This changed about 1966 to black on all models irrespective of the interior trim and seats.
Brian
8227  8)

That’s an interesting point Brian, but it may not have been across the range. My Bianco Saratoga car has armrests to match the vinyl colour of the seat lower sections and door trim, although the seat faces and door trim inserts are of Royal blue cloth. However a while ago I copied some photos of a very nice 2C that was for sale in the Netherlands (at about €15,000) it had the same Bianco Saratoga and blue cloth colour colour scheme as my car but looking now I see that indeed the armrests and the pocket in the drivers footwell are black.

Hi Tom

See attached photo
Justin

I found in the Technical information section being collated by David Wheeler the attached list of Fulvia Series 1 colours, and there it is...Avorio Chantilly and it is a colour for all or any Series 1 Fulvia so not just a GTE colour.
Stay Safe
Tom

I hesitate to add confusion, but looking at the side by side photographs of your cars I wonder if the darker is not painted in Beige Mirabello, which I have read somewhere as being available on series 1 cars, perhaps only late ones. I know it is not on the list above, but dare I suggest that it may be as good a match as the avorio colour, and a little less recherché.

At least your car is already painted, so you are not having to make a commitment!

Cesare

Hi Cesare it’s a good suggestion you make, visually it could be, but the reference material I have says that Biege Mirabello is a 1971 colour so too late for a series 1 car.

I see my 2c's Grigio Doncaster is shown in the Max mayer chart.
Brian
8227  8)

Hi Brian,
I found this for Grigio Doncaster on a colour sample chart. It looks very black....must be the soot that covered Doncaster in 1966 when the colour was introduced...just a joke...Fay looks very nice. What is the interior?
Cheers Tom

Guys a bit of an update on my plans for the Bianco Saratoga car.

As I have said before the car’s seat covering is very badly affected by the sun....not a problem it’s likely to experience in the East Neuk of Fife. See the sad pictures. After a lot of thought (including the notion to reupholster in fine duck blue leather) I decided I wanted to put the seats back to close to original.
The reverse side of the cloth and the door trim inserts show the true colour as a very bright (Royal) blue.
....more to follow to avoid photos limit.

I’m adding some photos from other cars with same interior fabric but infinitely better condition.

The set of seats out of the car were of a Flavia coupe sold by Classic Lancia in The Netherlands to a Franchise lady.... supposedly for €50,000 and the seats were recovered by a coach trimmers located near Utrecht. I did try to find out where the cloth came from but no joy.
However eBay came up trumps as I found some very good 80% Melton wool cloth in just the right colour or near as makes no difference for a very reasonable cost.

Here is the cloth I have.

After doing a search or two on the forum on colours of my cars I’ve just cottoned on the the racecourse name connection that Brian and others had identified and discussed. Saratoga racecourse indeed, as in the Carly Simon song..I hear you went up to Saratoga and your horse naturally won...

Fay's interior is red vinyl, as far as I'm aware cloth interior never came here, but as there's only ever been 3 original series 1 Berlinas, and they all have vinyl interiors, it seems a fair bet,that was all that was available here.
I shall have to dig it out and have a look at the condition and for which door, but I have a spare door trim panel complete in your colour you can have, it came off my donor car which was a Normale in 1997, and the only one worth saving
The blue cloth looks magnificent.
.
Brian
8227 8)

Brian that’s great and I’ll gladly accept the door trim. Let me know when you have dug it out.

Do you mean three models of Series 1 Berlinas in the UK or 3 actual cars...no surely 3 models right...

That cloth was only £15/m which I thought was a bargain.

Tom

Tom, I'll get it out and send you a photo.
Since I found Fay in 1997and I've only ever known two other UK Rhd series 1 2c Berlinas.
One, the oldest one belonged to Robin Lacey and was registered in 1965.
Fay was Registered 1st January 1966, but as far as I can tell was built about May 1965, she had one previous owner, and off the road for 21 years.
The 3rd when I first saw it was owned by Michael Newberry, and was a 1967 car OPD 37E, this gained a measure of fame a few owners down the road when Peter Baker took part in the Historique Monte Carlo.
Both changing hands a few times they are now in the Irish Republic, owned by Alan Murphy, both have previously had changes, and are no longer 2c specification, and have been fitted with 1300cc engines.
Alan intends restoring OPD 37E, and much work has been carried out, while CTM is used frequently abroad, having travelled as far as Greece.
They also carry new Irish Registration Numbers.
So my Fay is the only UK RHD 2c, and I think the oldest RHD UK Fulvia., and the only 2c to original specification.
I believe there is a RHD GT? In THE UK, although I don't think it was originally UK registered..
Australia appears to have the greatest number of RHD Fulvia series 1 Berlinas.
Brian
8227  8)

Hi Brian and all,
Incredible really that these Berlinas are so rare in the UK.
Brian have you ever looked on the following website?

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=Lancia+fulvia&commit=Search

It purports to list all the Uk registered examples of any given model.

It’s not completely accurate I think but at the moment it has listed for  Fulvia Berlinas
2C. 2 licenced and 1 SORNed
GT   1 licenced
GTE. 1 licenced
Berlinas 5...4 licenced and 1 SORNed ...it’s not clear if this might include those above, I think not but it’s probably a mixture of 2 Series two cars and three others which are not specified by model but are all licenced and two are 1969 and one is 1968.

btw those figures represent as of Q3 2019.

My cars aren’t yet UK registered so not on there and I think Vince’s GTE not on there either as there was one GTE listed for the years before his car was imported to the UK. I know that one of the guys that works for Omocron, Jules, has a GTE so it’s prob that.
And no info there regarding RHD/LHD.

Cheers

Tom

This is only a rough guide as DVLA back in the day just recorded what the dealer told them on the paperwork sometimes it was so generic.... Coupes are worst, but I have seen Sports listed as coupes and visa versa.

I think it is high time someone did the (relatively) easy task of curating a register of Berlinas, and possibly Coupes, like Roddy Young does for Sports (he took over the fine work of Peter Pompeii when Peter sadly passed away).

Yes sounds like a good idea Tim.
If only we weren’t so busy. Well I could have a go as I have two. I’ll list what I know about cars in the club then compare that with the HowManyLeft info and see where that takes us.
Cheers
Tom

As a start, my 2c is 1967, LHD registered in UK in 2016

I'll certainly do it if owners will let me have as much detail as possible.
That goes for all Berlinas, series 1 and series 2.
Series 1 shouldn't be too much of a problem, but
Although I know some the LHD imports, I'm sure their are others I don't know of.
Brian
8227  8)

Ok Brian the job is yours...
My Bianco Saratoga GTE has Italian ref no 208981 PV, I’ll come back on the engine number but chassis number is 818.310 010392.
My Avorio Chantilly GTE has Italian reg no. 74376 PE, engine number 027913 and chassis number is
818.310 008536
Cheers

Tom

I’m going to check the chassis number again on the bianco Saratoga car. If it is number 010392 that doesn’t make sense if the total number made was 10386 as is widely reported.

Didn't they start the numbering from 1001?, Andrea

Ah well if so that would explain it. So the last GTE would be 11387.
Tom

This was true for most models including Fulvias but the 1.3HF started at 1100, and the Fulvia Sport 1.3 at 1203 (??)

Minor bit of an update on my Avorio Chantilly GTE. When I was removing the radio and fitting the radio blank that Justin had very kindly sent me I came to realise that the dash vinyl cover had been recovered at some time with the same black vinyl as the seats. It’s not a bad job if not original. Also the grain on the vinyl is different to that on the door trims which must mean the door trims have the original vinyl and the seats are recovered. At least now I know for sure that the colours and seat material are more or less original.

Incidentally I recently bought spray paint of both Avorio Chantilly and Bianco Saratoga from a supplier on eBay. When I have tried them out I’ll report on how they match but the guy who supplied them was very helpful. He makes them up to order and even phoned me to make sure I wasn’t expecting a flawless match.

Tom

Brian, the engine number on my Bianco Saratoga GTE is 029584. Ties in with the progression of the chassis numbers being the later of the two cars.

Cheers

Tom

This probably doesn't really add anything of any import but our right hand drive Fulvia Berlina GTE has chassis number 818.311 009043 and engine number 818.311 48410.
In my quite extensive file on this car, I have an original  Lancia 'Car Colour Guide'. I didn't realise that each exterior paint colour came with only one specific colour of either woolcloth (panno) or vinyl (TVE) interior material.
Chris

That’s an interesting bit of information Chris, but does it really cover all the body colour options? Avorio Chantilly is not on it for example. Also I take it the leather was not an option in a Fulvia.
Cheers
Tom

Is there a publication year on that chart?

The leather options (pelli) are clearly shown.
Cbris

Apologies Chris I wasn’t being very clear there. I see the leather options, my question was really about which models they were applicable for. So for example we’re there really any Fulvia Berlinas supplied originally with leather seats.

As for the paint colour range the colours on that chart don’t correspond completely with the list that I attached before and are shown here again.
And to confuse matters further there is another list of colours shown on the Fulvia Berlina page of the Fulviaclub.it website. (you are probably well aware of that site but I only just came across it.)

http://www.fulviaclub.it/la-galleria-delle-immagini/lancia-fulvia-berlina/

With all this doubt I’m now thinking that my ‘Avorio Chantilly’ car might be Beige Villa Glori which is on your chart, although some sources indicate that didn’t come in until 1970.
Can you add the back page to that chart please. I think there may be a date on it similar to this one that I copied previously (and which seems to be from April 1972).
Cheers
Tom

Leather was available on all models that this colour chart covered ( a richiesta su tutte le vetture - available on all models)
I cant see a date on the brochure ( unless the 970 at the bottom of the back cover means 1970?) but the Fulvia Coupe 1,3S model was only made in 1968 and 1969 so the chart is for that general period i.e late 60's production..
Our rhd GTE 818.311 009043 was towards the end of GTE production and was sold new in Zurich being first registered there on 01.07.1969.
And finally the colours in the chart do not reproduce accurately using digital photography. 'My Beige Villa Glori' for example in the chart is lighter than in my photo.
Hope this helps.

Hi.
I have just imported a 1967 S1 Berlina GT from Italy. It's RHD, in white with black vinyl interior and it's my first Lancia. It's from Ascoli Piceno, famous for the huge earthquake in 2016 during which virtually all history/paperwork about my car was supposedly destroyed. So as well as investigating the rather rusty/bodged underside, I'm embarking on a bit of an investigation into its history. Not least finding out the date of first registration, which shows only the year on the documentation I have. Probably the DVLA will need more to issue the car with GB papers....
Cheers
Robert

Hi Robert,
Congratulations in joining the exclusive Berlina
Owners.
Any idea of origins as coming from Italy it would normally have been LHD, although Chris Gawne has a Rhd that came from Switzerland.
If you can let me have model, chassis and engine numbers I can pin something down for you.
Brian
8227  8)

You need to contact Neil Priestman in the back of VL DVLA Liason to get a letter authenticating your car and the process for getting it registered with DVLA (who are still shutdown due to Covid19 work restrictions in Wales)...

Yes indeed welcome to a very exclusive group Robert. I reckon there are fewer of us series 1 Fulvia Berlina owners in the UK than there are Ferrari Daytonas.
It’s only a guess but if your car is showing signs of rust and it’s RHD then is there a chance that it was taken to Italy by someone from the UK with a second home there? Maybe it spent the early part of its life in the UK.
Good luck with your project and keep us all up to date with your progress. Lots of help and bits available on here.
Cheers Tom

You (or your seller) can ask the local ACI office for a "visura" namely an official document showing the car history: small cost and usually available in a short time. Even if the area was badly damaged by earthquake (not Acoli Piceno downtown to my knowledge), the data are stored centrally in Rome. Andrea

Thanks Andrea. Actually even the visura only shows the year of registration.

 

Here are production records of 818.211 Fulvia GT variant. I am not aware that there are any more detailed records available than these sadly.
I think your car is 818.211.04767 which shows it was made in 1967.
I am slightly surprised that you have a rusty bodged underside if the car has spent its life in central Italy.
I am sure you wont have any problems with our DVLA as long as you get a letter from the LMC confirming the date of build and the attached factory document.
I am also certain that you will get to know and love your S1 Fulvia Berlina!
Chris

Thanks a million Chris. Yes. That's the car alright.

I can't wait to get it on the road!

The chassis number suggests a floor change and 1231 engine ??

I love my GT ('67 RHD, floor change/1231) , indeed just back from Aldi, where you can get a 250euro Aldi-shop in the boot (I only go every 3 weeks .....) they are so practical !

Let’s hope it doesn’t need a ‘floor change’...
Robert what condition is the interior in? You said black vinyl or TVE in Lancia speak
Cheers
Tom

Haha! No. I think the front floors will prove repairable. The sills need more work though sadly....

Great to hear how happy you are with your car Chris. It sounds identical. Sporty floor change and 1231cc. I'm so excited to have it up and running!

The interior is going to need some work by a trimmer for sure Tom, but I'm hoping repair, as opposed to full renovation, will be possible. All being well we'll be able to find a good matching vinyl to replace the 3-4panels which are torn/cracked.

Slightly off topic but this morning I saw a blue Berlina motoring along Beulah Hill in Norwood South London. Managed to wave and got a peep back.
Is this car local to the area?

Hi Robert,
We have a rhd GTE - 1298 cc in Italy with a 50mm centre exhaust which gives a little more power and noise. The nippy blue GT is Simon's in France.
Chris

Sorry Ghris, I hadn't realised you'd already put the build information up on the sheets that I came across a few years ago.

The visura you got is a bit different from the earlier ones I saw, maybe they changed the style. However, it does indicate the car chassis number, year of manufacture, duplicate log book issued in 1999 etc, and importantly that it was exported to the UK in Feb 2020 (penultimate line). I doubt you will need much more info than this. Andrea

Robert, I’ve just joined the forum. I seriously considered purchasing this car and importing it into Australia but the cost of importing was too high to gamble on the floor and trim condition. I’m glad you saved it!

I managed to buy a RHD GT locally here in Australia. I already have a coupe, and have been looking for a GT for a long time

Thanks for getting in touch Adam. I just replied directly by email.

The car will hopefully be back on the road this summer. It's been a long journey I must say with huge amounts of metalwork involved. But it's looking pretty smart.

Trying to attach an image here. I hope you can see it!

Looking good Robert ;D
Brian
8227 8)

Paint job looks really good Robert.
I’m undecided about the Ivory wheels...I think I would be tempted to make them body colour even although that would definitely be non original.
Tom

.
Tom,
The White wheels make it too white.
Brian
8227 8)

Good evening Brian, if you are still collecting details on berlinas hopefully this is useful.

I've just acquired a 1972 LHD berlina reg BVM 552K, chassis #818.612.034552, engine #105512.

The car was imported to the UK from Holland in early 2016, prior to which it lived in Verona with the plate VR 305590, where it would appear it was owned by a doctor.

However, the dealer sticker in the rear window is J. Casella, rue Cesar Campinchi, Bastia, Corsica - which is still a working garage as far as I can tell, although I doubt they have the original bill of sale!

On the topic of colours, the body is rosso york but the roof is white, which I don't imagine is original as I've never seen a two-tone Fulvia before, although I'm happy to be corrected.

Best regards,

Ian Conway

Thanks Ian, I'll make a note of the details, have you let Sarah Know?.
I recognise the Berlina you have just  purchased, but I've never actually seen it in the metal, certainly a unique colour scheme, and pretty sure it's an addition.
Hope to catch up with you and your lovely Berlina in the New year sometime.
Brian
8227 8)

Hi Brian,

I'm afraid I've been out of the loop for some time so I'm not sure who Sarah is or how to get in contact but I'm happy if you want to pass on my details and those of the car.

Slightly off-topic but as winter is setting in I'm shopping for anti-freeze for the fleet, however Halfords doesn't cater for older cars so their website is no help, do you have any product suggestions?

Many thanks,

Ian

Sarah is our membership secretary - details in back of VL.

Re Antifreeze I would go to Wilco Motor and get their blue glycol based concentrate and use at 50% dilution

https://www.wilcodirect.co.uk/product/coolant-antifreeze/rapid-cool-blue-antifreeze-5l-gc-1027/GC-1027

Alternately you could try this - significantly cheaper.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_dmd=2&iconV2Request=true&_ssn=smith_and_allan&store_cat=0&store_name=smithandallanlubricants&_oac=1&_nkw=blue%20antifreeze%2020l
I have just bought 20l red antifreeze from them for the MGTF, cost £38 and delivered next day.  Why go to the shops?!

Red or orange antifreeze (containing organic phosphates) is not recommended for old cars, Andrea

Thanks very much Tim, on the case

The garage that a friend uses had been merrily putting orange antifreeze in her 2008 Vauxhall Corsair, despite the handbook specifying blue, and she had quite a bit of sediment in the expansion tank.
Brian
8227 8)

So does the type of coolant required, depend on the material the engine is made from, alluminium or iron?

Detailed technical articles have been published in British mags like Classic Cars etc. In general, anything built before 2000 is best served with blue antifreeze, Andrea