Lancia Motor Club

What's not to like about this car

https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/classic/saturday-25th-january-2020/1963-lancia-flavia-coupe/

And no it is not mine!

Well you did ask..... The colour and the interior. Very Liberace and not quite Lancia IMHO

Discussed at length after it was for sale at the NEC. The consensus seemed to be they have spent far too much money getting it all wrong.

okay so what's to like about this car!

Chaps,

Having owned Flavias of many types over the last 37 years, along with Tim and others who have commented about this car I feel that I have a valid opinion.

Where does one start ?

As others have mentioned - The non original Fiat paint colour, the awful re-trim in what looks to be white, the incorrect shape of the sills (What on God`s earth did they come from, a Transit van ?) the incorrect Pininfarina badge on the boot lid, the body colour engine bay which should be black, the awful piano black trim on the dashboard, the shape of the OSF wheel arch etc, etc, I and am sure that you/we could go on.

Why did someone  (Allegedly) spend £40,000 to restore a car to such an awful standard ?. And as for the statement that there are only 3 others registered with the DVLA I think that there are a number of us that could dispute that fact !

Sorry to appear to be so negative about one of our own cars, but really ? If that`s worth £32000 - £ 40000, I can`t imagine what some of our cars are worth !!!

Bob

The hammer went down at £29,500 or thereabouts......

The hammer when down, but it didn't sell.

The hammer goes down to close the bidding and end the auction of that lot. It does not signify a sale. As to why someone would spend £40,000 on "restoring" a car to such an inaccurate standard why is there any question about this? It is surely either what the owner wanted, though we might see it as a case of having more money than sense, or it  could possibly be a case of an owner inadvisably giving their restorer more discretion than the restorer deserved. It wouldn't be the first time a restorer has spent more than the owner intended or carried out work that doesn't bear scrutiny.
 

Bob has highlighted a number of areas which he thinks are 'wrong'. I am not sufficiently familiar with the Flavia to pass comment on the shape of sills and wheelarches, but if they are wrong that that does, indeed, point to poor restoration work. But as for colour schemes, that is a personal matter for the owner, and if he wants his car in a non-authentic colour, why not? Personally I think the car looks superb in that colour and I would be very happy to own it; the interior trim is another matter - that really looks cheap and nasty to my eye, but that's my opinion! As for the body-colour engine bay, I think that looks a hundred times better than the 'original' semi-matt black finish, which has always seemed an unattractive feature to me; and the piano-black dashboard looks great too.

I was at the Auction, here's a quick video of it going through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqPBKYqwuNE
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqPBKYqwuNE)

Some time back, there was a brief analysis in Sports Car Market letter about the value of a car vs. the cost of restoration. In short, the most valuable cars were close to $1 market value : $1 restoration cost, and that you could sell the car, once restored, for what you had in it. Occasionally, you might find it sell for more than it cost to do the work, but this was rare (the odd, unusual Ferrari, for example).

More interesting was the other part of the picture - that it was more typical to find 50 cents market value for $1 of restoration: restore the car for $50k, only to find its worth $25k, for example. This was the most common example, although some (such as complex Italian cars) might be as low as 35 cents per $1 spent on restoration, the definition of a "labor of love". It was shocking to read, but it was a baseline of what really goes on.  True restoration costs are rarely discussed openly. The costs of the Flavia restoration were surely more than the sale cost, if done properly.

It's a mistake to think of our cars as an investment. We have them because we enjoy them - so what if they lose money - some people play golf on which you get nothing back for the money spent. ;D

Of course those who work on the car themselves lose less money and probably have more fun!

Mike

If it's your car you can do it any way that pleases you but really the issue here is the demonstrated expectation that it will sell for that sort of price. So far it is demonstrated that it won't.

"True restoration costs are rarely discussed openly."

I once kept a spreadsheet of costs as a learning exercise. 

The lesson: that I should not be keeping a spreadsheet of costs.

Head in the sand works for me :)

I personally didn't think the car was that bad, certainly something I'd have been happy to run around in.
The white seats weren't to my taste, but were done very well and didn't stick that far out of place.
I thought the dash covering looked perfectly acceptable, nice even. If the original dash was cracked or damaged then it's a nice outcome.
I don't know enough about the cars to know what was wrong with the sills...
Appreciate the colour not being a Lancia OE colour but it was hardly fluorescent green was it! Suited the car very well I thought.


For what my opinion is worth it looked as good as the vast majority of cars there, certainly 99.99% of the public would think so.

If it was being passed off as being 100% correct then fair enough to have a dig, but as far as I have seen it wasn't, just a nicely restored Flavia.
The issue on value is ridiculous, it is worth what anyone will pay. My friend with me bought a 1999 T plate Mercedes C200 that was pretty much spotless and a warranted 37,000 miles or thereabouts for the princely sum of £850, as near as dammit what someone paid for a shed of a Polski Fiat 125p that was all but useless, value is very subjective.

I can't think of anyone that seriously goes into a restoration hoping to make money, either self build (tricky to break even) or paying for it (tricky to not lose your shirt) so if that was their plan it's only ever going to be trouble.

I went to view a Toyota Corolla GTi that on paper looked like with a bit of welding, paint, general wake up repairs after 10 years of slumber I might be able to make a few quid, as long as it could be bought for under £1,000 I could make some money out of it. The fact it needed a lot more work was hardly a surprise, don't they always? But sills, floor edges, chassis ends, front wings, around ALL glass was rotten. It'd be a mammoth task, that was obvious to me and in all likelihood only worth £6 to £7k afterwards. The sums didn't make sense, even with my labour for free. The fact it sold for £3,600 shows that the value isn't always representative...

It's attracting adverse comment only because of the (reportedly) excessive restoration cost and the massive price expectation. It is a pretty car, the upholstery depending on your taste and if it were being offered at half that figure we'd say it's not right but so what, grab it quick. However, for that sort of money it is competing with this;  https://www.classic-trader.com/uk/cars/listing/lancia/flavia/flavia-1-8-pininfarina/1966/133963

That's a lovely looking car Frank, really nicely done inside.
I can see the issue with the sills now, slope under the car rather than more upright on the burgundy car.

So if I now read things correctly the issue isn't with the car as such, more than it's being passed off as the top of the tree without actually being so...

Looking at that footage I don’t think it received any bids. I saw the car on Friday, couldn’t make the sale day. It looked ok, a bit bling. The interior was indeed nicely done,  but the sills looked like they’d been plonked over the old ones.

....off topic I know - but what's this 1967 GTE doing in Italy?  (same website as the lovely early Flavia)

https://www.classic-trader.com/uk/cars/listing/lancia/fulvia/fulvia-gt-gte/1967/186345

Boy, that is lovely. Looks like new - one would need to see more, especially underneath...

Kevin. that's it. The car "is what it is" and is very attractive in it's way depending on your taste. The vendor's expectation is more the issue. Perhaps the point is that when a car is something of a niche product the pool of potential customers at top prices is restricted to those who are very knowledgeable about the model and will only part with top dollar for something that is absolutely right. If it were an Integrale Evo with custom mods of a very particular genre the purists might cringe but there would still be a market amongst wealthy but less critical buyers. I'm watching the Y10 for sale in Newark in the same way. I don't think anyone has paid £4,000 for a Y10 since they were almost new. An immaculate, low mileage, one owner Fiesta of that age would make that price and one might consider the Y10 a better car. However, where are the buyers? If the Y10 were a GTie our members might well be tempted but it's an absolute base model without even electric windows. Even amongst Y10s it's a poor relation. It's going to be very interesting to see where it gets to.

If my Appia's repair bills had not been so high, that Fulvia would probably be in the UK now! I've been watching it for some time, thinking money's only worth anything if you spend it! And like Frank, I too am seeing what develops with the Y10 - it's only ten miles from here ...

The Fulvia Berlina is a GT not GTE. Looks to have significant rust issues - there are better examples available albeit LHD.
The cost to ship to the UK is the same (and relatively high proportionately for the low value Berlinas) for good and bad examples. Best to go for a good one!

Currently in Rome, if someone buys it I could drive it back to UK, but suspect that would be wishful thinking at this late stage , flight this evening though.


But when I checked the address its not Via Salaria Rome, but another Via Salaria on the other side of peninsula, oh well.


P

The company is based in Rome, on the description the location is Ascoli Piceno 1600km from Calais. 

I've not quite worked out what "Link Motors" is.  A marketing umbrella for a network of independent dealers or is it really that big? 

http://www.linkmotors.it

"Franchising"

Protection in buying and selling
Ability to finance the entire amount
Possibility of Guarantee on Faults up to 36 months
Link Motors Personnel Assistance
Possibility of home delivery of the vehicle
Total management of bureaucracy



https://www.linkmotors.it/epoca.asp?marca=LANCIA

No surprise, the Flavia at Kings Lynn didn’t sell.

Similar colour scheme, half the price:

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1196808

I know it's a later car, but surely a 2000HF and an early Flavia are worth a similar figure?

Yes, I see where that makes sense Frank. The potential buyers would mostly, if not solely, be a Lancia guy so I can see where the details need to be right.
As you rightly say, you'd maybe get away with it on an integrale as they seem to have a separate sub culture following. I know my own integrale is far from original with many details not correct, but the difference is I restored it to suit my taste and have no interest in selling, or its' value come to that. Makes no odds to me at the moment as it'll most likely be passed down to my lad when I've popped my clogs so if it is worth £200 or £20,000 it doesn't matter.

I did notice that Y10 and wondered if it would find a buyer, couldn't see it at that price surely? A mint GTie or turbo might stand a chance maybe?

Frank do you have a link for the Y10 please.
I owned two Y10's, an early fire and a G reg Gtie.
The Gtie was flawed in that it was a case t iron lump that was so heavy it really could have done with power steering, used to understeer badly when pushed, wed bought it for Diane, but she was unable to drive it as far too heavy for her, compounded by big alloys and wide tyres, but it certainly went.
The 999cc fire in comparison was a delight to drive, being very light controls and a very responsive carburettered engine, and I see the lack of bells and whistles with manual wind up windows a bonus these days.
Brian
8227  8)

I too had a couple of Y10s in the late 90s for my kids. The Fila was a hoot to drive and the Gtie as you say Brian was very powerful but not so nice on the road. Great little cars.

Here you go Brian  8)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1985-B-LANCIA-Y10-FIRE-4-SPEED-MANUAL/333495853039?hash=item4da5e6dfef:g:mQkAAOSwYOxeLur9

And then there is this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1973-Lancia-2000HF-Coupe-RHD/333497674354?hash=item4da602aa72:g:q9AAAOSw7Z5eMHcD

Looks lovely, did 2000hf's originally have decals along the sill panels?
Brian
8227  8)

I would have thought 1973 predates the use of decals in any position.

Chaps,

The 2000 HF did indeed have decals running along the car above the sills. They consisted of four parallel pinstripes that ran from the trailing edge of the front wheel arch, along the door and onto the rear 3/4 and behind the wrap around part of the rear bumper.

The stripes run through the Pininfarina badge on the rear 3/4, with the top and bottom stripes aligning with the top and bottom of the badge. On the Rosso York car on e-bay they would have been white.

Personally I have never liked them, and didn’t replace them on either of my HFs after they were re-painted.

Bob