Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Augusta => Topic started by: Mikenoangelo on 30 November, 2019, 10:26:30 PM



Title: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 30 November, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
Having seen all the recent epic Appia and Fulvia progress reports I thought I should update on my Winter Augusta projects.

The Augusta I bought from Modena last year has run for about 1000 miles this year mainly for me to enjoy, which I did greatly, but also to see what needed doing on the mechanical side. The car is very good bodily with no rust and seemingly very correct and original. In fact the previous now departed owner was meticulous with the bodywork, having stripped it completely to bare metal and refurbished the whole car during his 35 years ownership. He was very keen on rust protection as everything is heavily greased, even the inside of the headlights!

The mechanical side is a bit of an unknown as there are no bills, although it appears to be fine, with good compression, no smoke, uses no oil and goes well. All the brakes had been relined with new hoses and the car rewired. Apart from the dreaded fuel gauge which I mentioned earlier (no progress on that), everything works. It has been converted to 12v although I suspect the starter motor is just boosted not converted, and I fitted a 12v to 6v voltage reducer to the wiper motor which ran hot and had a poor contact in the switch. Interestingly the voltage reduction has not slowed the motor and it no longer overheats. The fan bearings were noisy so I replaced them and the engine is now pretty quiet.

I had a fuel starvation problem which was confused by a failing ignition coil, and as I eventually discovered, rather inadequate plug leads. The fuel starvation arose because although the filter is correct, the fuel tap is Ardea not Augusta and the outlet fitting on the tap lacks the circumferential groove which lets fuel through the integral banjo fitting on the filter. I tested the fuel flow rate and the maximum flow would only feed enough fuel for about 25mpg which was evidently not enough for full throttle at 45-50 mph uphill. The ignition lead problem was unexpected as there was no evident misfiring, and being unused to the feeling of a 4V I did not detect anything out of order. When I changed the leads and plug caps there was a marked improvement in smoothness and power. I  had fitted a cheap digital rev counter which gets the signal from a wire wrapped around the coil to distributor lead and had attributed the slightly flickery reading to the nature of the £25 instrument - more fool me as once the leads had been changed it reads very steadily. Interestingly it also counts the hours run so I can see that my year's motoring has been done at an average speed of about 28mph.


Jobs to do include searching for the cause of vibration at about 2800rpm which could be engine or transmission and the need to improve the front suspension which had unfortunately been greased so that the shockabsorber function was absent. The steering seems a bit heavier than I expected and the right hand side gives out a clonk when crossing a pothole, of which North Yorkshire council provide us with plenty.

I've made a start, having had the propshaft balanced and last week having removed and dismantled the gearbox which needs new bearings and attention to wear on the mainshaft centre spigot and the clutch shaft spigot. More of that later.

Meantime I've more or less finished making the tools needed to strip the front suspension which as you can see from the picture include a large "G" clamp to remove the lower spring, an unusual spanner with 4 pegs to remove the kingpin, a "C" spanner ( not yet cut to form the "C"), two castle box spanners, and a large double ended ring spanner for the top of the pillar.

Keeps me going!!

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 30 November, 2019, 11:12:28 PM

Love the photo of the tools.  Am greatly looking forward to the saga continuing. 



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 02 December, 2019, 08:53:02 PM
Good to hear of progress, I did my front suspension a few months ago.
Both had water in them and as a consequence some rust. The damper rods were serviceable but one of the smaller damper drive springs was broken and the other rusty so had some more made, available if you need any.
The water was there because the upper dust cover was absent. The top cap has about a 12mm hole and the damper rod is 10mm. so nothing to keep the spray out.
I have not been able to find out what the original arrangement was, would be interested to know what you have. I have made a couple of push-on covers.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 05 December, 2019, 09:10:11 PM
Mike I'll take some pictures for you - there was a rubber washer nipped by the  oiler nipple and the aluminium dust cover. I'm on with the gearbox at the moment so have not yet attacked the suspension.

I can do a running commentary on the these jobs as I do them if this is of interest to members. I am well aware that Morris Parry has covered much of this in the Newsletters but I find the reports on other models interesting so perhaps others will enjoy seeing how the Augusta works.

This was the state of play earlier in the week:-

Gearbox investigation so far!

We have a vibration which I am trying to track down. I worried at first that this could be the engine but after sorting out the ignition problem, making a new locating spider for the front fabric universal joint and having the propshaft balanced by Dunning and Fairbank in Leeds. I concluded it must originate in the gearbox or clutch. The u/j discs are in good condition.

The curious thing is that the vibration does not always show, but when it does, at about 45mph, it can often be suppressed by a quick pump of the clutch pedal. When in full vibrato mood, holding the clutch down and letting the revs drop makes no difference, so it is not engine related. The ďquick jab at the clutchĒ cure must therefore mean clutch or gearbox - so out with the box and dismantle - hoping not to forget how it all goes together. Fortunately Morris Parryís Newsletter tells all, and I am photographing it as I go.

Removing the box from underneath the car was surprisingly easy, with the help of a chum in case the whole thing fell onto me! I donít have a pit, but with some extra tall axle stands at the front and blocks under the back wheels we could get to everything comfortably.

After removing the propshaft, and the lever controlling the freewheel, disconnecting the speedometer cable and clutch pedal link, lifting out the gearlever, propping the front of the engine with a simple wooden stand (the engine will tip forward when relieved of the weight of the gearbox) the clutch actuating fork must be disengaged. This is a very clever feature but you need to see it to understand - the fork which presses the thrust race is asymmetrical so it can be tilted away from the race and moved sideways to disengage from the race. The shaft on which the fork is mounted crosses through the bell housing and is retained by a circlip on the left of the bell housing. Having removed the circlip the shaft is pushed  in about 12mm to the right and wriggled about until it can be felt to have disenged the fork. This is a very ingenious feature and a good example of the fully designed nature of the Lancia - all thought out and drawn up rather than being made up as the prototype builders went along.

From this point the job was easy, just remove the cross bolt which supports the tail of the box and the five bell housing bolts then wriggle the box back and out - it clears everything, although only by millimetres and is light enough to manhandle with no need for props or jacks.


Next task was to strip the gearbox. A full description of the procedure is written up in the Augusta Newsletter and all went to plan.  All the gears look to be free of wear, including the notoriously noisy second gear - although it was noisy. The lock up driving dogs on the freewheel show no signs of tapering wear but the bearings were like the curateís egg - good in parts - so I shall change them all.

Here are some photos

Mike





Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: rogerelias on 05 December, 2019, 10:28:10 PM
I am curious about the Salmson car, is that a Trials car built by Colin Salmson ?


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 06 December, 2019, 08:36:33 AM
I am curious about the Salmson car, is that a Trials car built by Colin Salmson ?
Ha Ha! It's a nice little French light car which goes very well. Mike took me for a ride in it a few years ago and it's quite impressive.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 06 December, 2019, 09:14:46 AM
"I can do a running commentary on the these jobs as I do them if this is of interest to members. "

PLEASE!!!

The clutch release is new to me. 

I enjoyed reading first and pictures after, the reverse of a magazine article.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 06 December, 2019, 09:42:38 PM
Iíve taken the shafts and bearings to HB Bearings in Honley near Huddersfield to sort out replacement  bearings for those which are non standard sizes and also grind the circumferential grooves in the outer races of the three bearings which are located by a dowel. The tiny roller race between the input shaft and mainshaft is worn, as is the spigot on which it runs on the main shaft - there is a standard needle roller race which Karl Sanger has used here so I shall do the same, getting HB to grind the shaft and housing to fit. The front spigot on the input shaft which engages with a small bearing in the flywheel is also in poor shape and Iíll await HBís suggestion for this - most probably a light grind to the shaft and then make a new ball race with a smaller bore to fit.

When I got the car the freewheel had been locked out of action and on a short You Tube video the previous owner mentions that the freewheel was a bit problematicaI so I did not try to re-activate it. Just as well as it turned out. There are no signs of the overheating which can arise if the driving dogs become worn to a taper and overload the freewheel selector fork but the 10mm bolt which screws into the tail end of the mainshaft to retain the freewheel cam and roller unit had sheared off and was floating loose within the freewheel driven drum. The bolt has an over-large hexagon head 27mm across flats so care is needed when tightening it. I managed to remove the detached end of the stud by cautiously drilling it with the shaft in my lathe and using an ďEasyoutĒ stud extractor. I made a new bolt of EN24T, and a new tab washer. The wire locking the freewheel lever out of action was holding the freewheel selector fork and cam/roller unit forward, taking load which would normally be taken by the now sheared off bolt. Ughhh! The freewheel seems to be perfect and does operate as it should when turned by hand although the selector fork is a bit worn as expected since it had been wired to hold the unit in the locked position.

The large ball race at the back of the mainshaft is a problem, being non standard in outside diameter so that when dismantling, the freewheel unit can be withdrawn from the back of the box. HB will make a new ball race to fit, a job they do frequently, being among other things, specialist bearing suppliers to the motor sport industry.

Apart from the bearings the rest of the gearbox parts, including gears, dogs and splines look to be in very good condition and the standard of finish and detail is superb. There are a couple of quirky bits of design. The large rear bearing is kept in place by a pair of 12mm studs, notched on one flank to straddle the outer race and inserted with the bearing into the housing which has semicircular grooves to take the studs, which are tightened by a dome nut outside the back cover of the box to pull the bearing back into place. Three bearings have circumferential groove round the outer race which engage with dowels inserted through the side of the gearbox. The input shaft main bearing is retained by a pair of Belville washers (a dished spring washer) retained by a 4mm pin through the shaft which has a notch at each end which allows the washer to lap over the pin onto the notch and so stop the pin from coming out.

Overall I am very impressed with the quality of the gearbox which was certainly a no expense spared piece of kit. Having owned and worked on a couple of vintage Rolls Royces I would say that the Augusta is well up there in quality and is perhaps like the RR, a bit more complex than it needed to be!




Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 06 December, 2019, 10:09:59 PM
The Salmson is another story - I've owned it since 1984 and have done about 70,000 miles with it. A brilliant car, 1100cc twin overhead cam engine and weighs less than 600kg. It's done some epic trips and can cover the ground amazingly for its age as it has a happy cruising speed of 58-60mph at 3000rpm. Lots of trips to France and 20 years ago a double crossing of the USA with complete reliability.
Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 07 December, 2019, 10:06:06 AM
I follow with great interest your proceedings of the gear box overhaul. Looks all very familiar to me.

Regarding the free wheel selector fork, I had mine straightened because it got bent while hot and then I had it welded up before ground to original dimensions.

In you picture No.10, I can see those dogs in very good condition, but the wear would be at the opposite part with the small dogs as in picture No. 5.  If those dogs are much worn, tapered, the only solution would be to make a new part 31-1739. There is an original drawing available.

For the unbalance you have described, it looks as there is a slight unbalance in the crankshaft/fly wheel assy. and in the clutch assy. Depending of the relative position of those part to each other, the inbalances add up or cancel themselves. I have had that on my car. One part in the clutch assy. which is unbalanced by design, is the clutch spring, which is very assymetric.
Another suspect would be the pressed sheet metal part which compresses the spring. The 6 mm holes can be enlarged, therefore the part can be displaced.

Regards

Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 08 December, 2019, 12:11:48 PM

Fascinating as ever.  Has this been a living or "just" a very serious hobby? 

Have you a "potted history" of the Salmson, perhaps an old article you'd written, you could easily post on another thread?

"Belville washers" I last came across reading about the early active suspension Williams, I expect in one of the new style Haynes Manuals. 


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 08 December, 2019, 09:02:35 PM
Good to hear of progress, I did my front suspension a few months ago.The top cap has about a 12mm hole and the damper rod is 10mm. so nothing to keep the spray out.
I have not been able to find out what the original arrangement was, would be interested to know what you have. I have made a couple of push-on covers.

Mike - the seal at the top of the pillar seems to have been a soft sponge rubber washer about 4mm thick on top of the pillar and beneath the dust cover, the whole thing being clamped down by the oiler nipple. My car seems to be pretty much unmolested as none of the rubber seals or bushes, washers etc seem to have been replaced so I think what you see in my picture is what was fitted from new. I had to replace the rubber supporting bushes under the engine mounts and they were certainly original, athough so compressed that I could not insert the (non existent - had to make that!) starting handle as the front of the engine  was so low.
Thanks for the offer of buffer springs - I may well need to take you up on that as the offside front suspension does clonk on potholes, however that comes after the gearbox job.


By the way has anyone found a source for the dust cap for these oiler nipples? They are similar to the Enots oilers and caps used on Rolls Royces, but smaller.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 08 December, 2019, 09:51:46 PM
Now the gearbox bits are away to be fixed I am taking a look at the clutch which as Karl has mentioned could well be the source of vibration, certainly looking into the thrust race cover and spring, they do seem to be a bit off to the right. Picture 14. Very hard to photograph but with a feeler gauge the offset is about a millimetre.

To replace the ball race in the flywheel into which the very worn spigot end of the gearbox input shaft ďfitsĒ,  involves removing the clutch and taking off the flywheel to access the bearing. I ask myself whether the worn spigot is due to clutch imbalance, displacement of the spring retaining cover, or whether the clutch plate goes offset because the spigot is worn? Chicken and egg!

Another tool was needed and made today. Others have made a widget to engage with the fitting on the clutch shaft and compress the spring so that the bolts which hold the dished cover against which the clutch spring acts can be safely undone. I did not have a big enough piece of steel bar to do it that way so made a cross bar and plate which bolts to the bell housing flange on the crankcase which will take the load while the three bolts (tiny 6mm) are taken out and replaced by longer bits of studding to progressively unload the spring. It may be that the cross bar alone could do the job but itís belts and braces for me as itís a jolly strong spring. Picture 15.

Itís not possible to remove the small bolts one at a time and replace them with studding as the clutch cover is very lightweight and would distort. I suspect the original method was to use some sort of cross bar clamp as there are two 8mm holes diametrically opposite in the crankcase flange although oddly there is not enough room on the back of the flange for the head of a standard bolt. Not using these two holes creates a problem as the five gearbox mounting bolt holes are not diametrically opposed so an extra bridging strip is needed.

Karl I got the dogs wrong as you say! Here are the driving dogs which act when the freewheel is locked out. They are a bit worn but I think they will clean up with a slight grind on the flanks. Pictures 12 and13.



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 08 December, 2019, 10:06:17 PM

Fascinating as ever.  Has this been a living or "just" a very serious hobby?  

Have you a "potted history" of the Salmson, perhaps an old article you'd written, you could easily post on another thread?



David thanks for your interest - I can bore forever on the Salmson but will just do a short bit on another  thread so as not to pollute the Augusta saga.

No I'm not a professional just a vintage petrolhead. I'm self taught as an engineer although I had a half share in an engineering company in which my business partner did all the engineering and I did everything else. My first car was a 1926 Bullnose Morris bought in 1954. Since then I've had and restored a couple of Rolls 20's, a Three Litre Bentley, the Salmson, and a 1907 Stanley Steamer. I've also restored a Brescia Bugatti and fiddled with some GN bits. All of these cars are still in action with their current owners which is very pleasing. I like fettling as much as motoring and enjoy the challenge of something new to me. I've no great interest in modern cars being a vintage man at heart, and the Augusta is the newest old car I have owned.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 10 December, 2019, 01:07:30 PM
Here another tool for releasing the clutch spring.

regards  Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 10 December, 2019, 03:06:07 PM


 I suspect the original method was to use some sort of cross bar clamp as there are two 8mm holes diametrically opposite in the crankcase flange although oddly there is not enough room on the back of the flange for the head of a standard bolt.



That's the way I do it, with a length of angle iron between the two holes, held in place with tapered nuts on studding. I also make sure the spring goes in the same way round each time, as well as everything else. A spiggot is also needed to centre the clutch plate. Please keep up the reporting, as it's very interesting.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 10 December, 2019, 10:24:23 PM
Clutch removed last night without difficulty. As I suspected the spring is out of line. Iíll put some pictures on here tomorrow so you will understand how the clutch works - itís very ingenious and very lightly built, the clutch plate weighing almost nothing which no doubt contributes to the extraordinary ease of changing gear despite the absence of synchromesh.

The spring is not original, but of heavier wire, 8mm x 9mm rather than 8 x 8, perhaps to discourage slip. The clutch cover plate is a very thin pressing and it looks like the stronger spring is right on the limit of loading for the cover plate as it is a bit distorted.

The problem is that the spring is not very accurate and the coils which should seat in a lipped recess in the thin steel cover plate are too tight a fit so that the spring is canted over a couple of mm to one side. This does not affect the clutch plate, which rides independently on the gearbox input shaft between the box and the flywheel  but because the clutch thrust race is carried on a tripod of thin spring steel there seems to be a possibility that the thrust race housing is pushed more on one side than on the other. This in turn might cause the clutch plate to be squeezed more at one side of the axis at the instant of engagement which would put an asymmetric load on the front spigot of the input shaft. This could explain the wear on the spigot and perhaps allow the clutch plate to move a little off line before being trapped as the clutch finally engages so contributing to an imbalance and vibration. It could also explain why the vibration I am chasing is affected by pressing the clutch pedal. Just a theory!

In fact the clutch behaves perfectly as a clutch, taking up smoothly, never slipping and permitting easy reversing up hills. I canít fault it and the faces of the flywheel and the pressure plate are perfect and the lining absolutely unworn, flat and even.

Unless I can grind the existing spring to sit properly in the recess Iíll have to seek a new one from the supplier used by Dale Hicks a while ago.

Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 11 December, 2019, 10:35:54 AM
I modified my Augusta's clutch by adding three small springs - a copy of Mike Wheeler's system because I found there was a tendency to slip after I fitted the blower.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 11 December, 2019, 09:51:31 PM
Here is the Augusta clutch. Top centre is the pressure plate (the disc) with the central boss which carries the clutch release bearing. Inside the bearing is the clutch release dog, mounted on a  hollow shaft with a nut on the inner end which is pulled back by the action of the clutch pedal and via the thrust bearing pushes the pressure plate back away from the lining to disengage the clutch. The pressure plate unit is fixed to the flywheel by the three spring steel arms which flex to allow the plate to move away from the flywheel.

The spigot shaft, not shown, goes through the hollow centre shaft, is splined to the clutch plate and aligned by the gearbox input shaft between flywheel and box.

Top left is the cover plate, a very thin steel pressing, attached to the flywheel by three bolts, which compresses the spring against the central boss of the pressure plate unit.

The flywheel, most unusually does not fit to a taper on the crankshaft but is held in place and driven by four bolts which screw into the end of the crank - they are strong! Iíve seen that many of the components have a small round indent, showing that they were routinely tested for hardness, and this includes the four bolts.

Today I have made a fixture to prevent the flywheel from rotating while I undo the four flywheel bolts to replace the centre spigot ball race. I work on my own, often for a couple of hours in the evening so I donít have a handy assistant.

Mike




Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 12 December, 2019, 01:08:59 PM
On the last photo, I note that the friction plate is of a different construction as the original, which is made from aluminium, slotted and wavy. The linings are attached alternating to the front or rear of the plate. The original assembly has a weak point, that are the rivets who attach the plate to the splined hub. They can become loose allowing the hub to move on the plate, resulting in elongating the holes. The one of Mike's Augusta seems to have those rivets spaced on a greater radius.

Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 12 December, 2019, 07:50:58 PM
My clutch plate is certainly different to Karlís as the disc is steel rather than aluminium. It all looks fairly new and the riveting is really tidy, so perhaps having found that aluminium is a bit weak the previous owner substituted a steel version, or did the later cars use a steel plate (mine is 1936)?  With the cut out holes just inward of the lining it looks like a very professional job. See photo 16 above. The part behind the lining is wavy as it should be. . The more I look at this the more I suspect that it is a clutch plate from some other source rather than a specially made replacement but as I said it works perfectly.

There are other differences - the rivets attaching the linings are all on 133mm, not alternating diameters as in Karlís photo. The centre boss of mine does not have the cylindrical flange seen on yours Karl. The rivets fixing the centre boss are on 43 mm diameter.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 13 December, 2019, 07:53:11 PM
Decision time - new clutch spring ordered from Tested Spring Co, who previously made a batch for Dale Hicks. The spring is slightly stronger than the standard Lancia version but very similar to the rather inaccurately made spring on my car. Not cheap as a one-off at £98 plus carriage.

If anyone else would like to have one please let me know by Dec 16th and I will see if a better price can be negotiated.

Having looked into all the likely sources of vibration I could imagine in clutch, gearbox and transmission there remained the possibility that the problem might originate in the engine. So today I started the engine which is still in place in the car, but shorn of clutch and gearbox. The engine is now supported just by the two leaf springs which connect the crankcase to the chassis which appear to be more or less at the midpoint of balance as it stays level with no assistance apart from than the two radiator hoses. However I supported the sump at both ends just to be safe.

I let it warm up and then cautiously let it rev up to 3800 rpm. Itís bad for an engine to rev free of load so the test was very brief but nothing untoward happened - no obvious vibration periods so thatís a relief. The flywheel runs absolutely true both in rotation and wobble. I did note that the starter pinion just occasionally tinkled against the flywheel teeth at tickover. A good result!


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 14 December, 2019, 07:42:05 PM
Mike. Thanks for the detail on the dust cover and all the other posts. I am following it all with interest so please keep at it .
I didn't drive our Augusta before I repaired everything so I don't know what noise, if any, my broken drive spring would have made but from my (limited) experience with Ardea and Aprilia the clonking could be from the bottom bush, particularly if it was only lubricated with grease.
The Ardea also had similar clonking from play in the bearing housing fixed with locktite.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 15 December, 2019, 01:24:49 PM
The flywheel runs absolutely true both in rotation and wobble. I did note that the starter pinion just occasionally tinkled against the flywheel teeth at tickover.
 I'll see if I can find a spare pinion return spring for you.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 17 December, 2019, 09:30:12 PM
John thanks re starter spring. I'm not in there yet but will let you know if I need one, and if you find it!

Not much progress - precedence given to domestic decorating last weekend - we moved house a couple of years ago and there are still some projects in hand. House is 110 years older than the Augusta but perhaps not as well made.

I've ordered a new clutch spring and have silver soldered the parts for the front suspension tools. This evening I removed the front brake drums which it seems have been skimmed. It has had new moulded linings fitted and the rubbing contact is uniform all around and across each shoe - no wonder it stops well - the brakes are massive for the size of car. I'll change the wheel bearings to sealed  ones as a precaution although the shielding of the brakes from escaping grease looks very thorough. It was very satisfying to find that the stub axle threads and the nuts are pristine with no brutal burring or monkey wrench marks as are the slotted screws holding the backplates to the pillar housings. This seem to be the case with every part seen so far.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 22 December, 2019, 09:37:25 PM
Dismantled the front suspension today. All the tooling made to Morris Parry's Newsletter drawings worked fine. The hardest task is to remove the lower cap retaining the main  spring, a two man task, using a jack to hold the tool in place to free the thread and then the monster "G" glamp to take the load of the spring as the cap is unscrewed. It takes two to do this as heaving on one end of a 5ft lever is not enough and makes the car on its tall axle stands seem very unstable. However with the bar (a 1 metre length of 25mm steel bar)  extended through the box spanner with a pipe on the the other end we each had about 800mm of leverage, symmetrically applied, and the cap was soon freed.

No broken springs and so far nothing seems unduly worn, however it was filled with grease which just does not allow the shockabsorber valves to work, as noted when  using the car. More investigation needed and perhaps (Christmas preparations permitting) tomorrow when I'm a bit less greasy, some pictures.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 23 December, 2019, 10:14:52 PM
Getting very grubby today cleaning up front suspension parts. Lots of springs (five per side!), numerous tiny spring and ball or plunger flow valves and unfortunately masses of grease. On the off side spring unit several of these flow valves were tightened to the point where no flow could occur, and the brass head of the cylinder was mounted upside down so that the rebound shock absorber action was lacking as I had noted.

The operating piston has a thin steel disc non return valve which I replaced, and the face of the piston was worn and renovated by lapping with a diamond lap plate.

All these parts are tiny as the bore of the shock absorber cylinder is only 24mm and the threads on some of the bits are of minute 0.75mm pitch. Beautifully made though.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 28 December, 2019, 10:48:55 AM
Progress between crackers and Christmas cake.

I finished dismantling the sliding pillars. The nearside main spring is distorted at the lower end so that the coils do not sit flat on the thrust bearing when not under load. The track of the bottom race shows evidence of this in the wear marking although the bearing seem to turn smoothly. I can see no reason why the spring is distorted as unlike the clutch spring, it seems to be original, not a dodgy replacement but Iíll have to sort that out.

At this point I checked the sliding pillars for wear by cleaning all the grease off the pivot and bushes then replacing the bottom (spring retaining) cover without the springs so that free play can be felt. With the spring in place, the spring pressure masks any play. There was nothing detectable in the top bush but a small amount could be felt in the bottom pivot.

I disconnected the brake pipes and removed the complete stub axle, brake and swivel unit so I shall have to refill and bleed the brakes later. Not a problem though as I have to replace the brake fluid reservoir which is corroded, There is a Girling replacement which is used on the Series 1 Land Rover from 1954-58 and readily available - it is very similar to the original Lockheed part, just needing a change of mounting strap and the correct flared pipe fitting (UNF 7/16 x 20tpi ) to the outlet pipe.

Now I had to remove the lower spring pivot (effectively the bottom end of what on lesser cars would be called the kingpin), the bush for which is the bore of the lower spring retaining cover  The most difficult part of the job is to remove the small circlip which retains the pivot. The circlip is inside the bore of the pivot and can only be attacked from beneath the axle end while grovelling on the floor. With this removed the pivot is easily unscrewed for inspection.

Both pivots showed some wear, which is as expected more pronounced on the side towards the centre line of the car. Checking the clearance between pivot and bush with a narrow feeler gauge showed about 4 thou on the most worn area (0.1mm) and 3 thou on the least worn area (0.08mm). The pivots which are slightly barrel shaped show a wider band of wear on the loaded side. The ďbushĒ seems unworn with no marking or measurable departure from its 35mm bore.
Iíd like to rectify the wear on the bottom pivots but how? Others have built them up with braze or white metal or I suppose they could be hard chromed and reground. Iím reluctant to use any heat on this rather critical component which must be made of high quality heat treated steel. It is also a very difficult thing to reproduce should anything go wrong!

I wonder whether I could nickel plate to build up the worn area and then hand fettle to size. Iíd copper plate first to give both a base and a ďguide coatĒ for the fettling then nickel the worn area. Iíd get a home nickel plating kit and experiment before committing to the job but also need to find out whether plating can by hydrogen embrittlement damage the steel. Nickel or maybe cupronickel should have sufficient wear resistance for the task.

Now back to the Christmas cake.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 30 December, 2019, 05:24:19 PM
I took the flywheel off to replace the 10x30x9mm spigot bearing which carries the nose of the gearbox input shaft - my clamp to prevent rotation while undoing the four bolts worked perfectly and also held the flywheel in place until I was ready to take it off. There was very little oil leaking from the rear main bearing. There is a large oil scroll on a fitting on the engine side of the flywheel and very well designed channels for leakage to be returned to the sump. The spigot bearing seems OK but Iíll replace it with a sealed version.

Back to the sliding pillars and shock absorbers. Iíd already spotted that the tiny spring loaded non return valve at the bottom end of the shock absorber spindle on the offside (R/H) had been screwed up tight, completely stopping oil flow and I now see the consequence of this. The cap closing the lower end of the bore of the lower spring pivot, within which the shock absorber spindle slides had been forced off its seat by hydraulic pressure of oil which had no other escape route. The non return valve is just a ball and spring in the end of the tubular spindle with a tiny spider further up the tube for the spring to seat on. The screw which provides a seat for the ball screws into the end of the spindle but there seems to be nothing to stop it from being screwed right in and locking the ball between cap and coil bound spring, and nothing to stop it from unscrewing. Perhaps it was originally retained by solder - maybe a job for Locktite.

In view of this, and all the grease, it's no surprise that the shockabsorber function was poor  on that side.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Jaydub on 30 December, 2019, 08:31:25 PM
Mike ,could you not drill 2 holes diametrically opposite each other and put a small splitpin in when the screw is in the correct position, or is there no room?
Excellent article by the way. Even though I have zero knowledge of Augustas and that type of suspension, I find any engineering problems/solutions interesting, as we learn something new everyday.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 31 December, 2019, 08:32:03 PM
The tube is the main piston rod of the shockabsorber which is a good sliding fit in the bottom pivot of the sliding pillar so nothing can protrude from the outer surface of the tube. I wonder whether the screw might have originally been stopped by the end of the thread but that this has been made deeper than it should be by some misguided person running a tap in to clean the thread? Or perhaps the screw was soft soldered in place.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 01 January, 2020, 04:50:56 PM
There is no history of the valve becoming loose. The screw is spring loaded via the ball and for additional safety, loctite or similar can be added. The original drawing does not show anything securing the screw.

Regards Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 01 January, 2020, 10:00:10 PM
Mystery solved Karl - thanks for the drawing.     In the drawing it does look as though the screw should be stopped by the end of the thread and on the left side suspension of my car this is the case and the ball is still free to move with the screw fully tightened. On the right side, which has the end cap of the lower suspension pivot displaced, the cap screws further in until stopped by the ball contacting the inner stop pin. So is seems that my guess about the thread having been cut deeper is right - so Locktite it is!

Happy New Year to all - I've had my Salmson out today for 110km on a locally organised NYD run (a tradition local members of the VSCC have maintained since 1980) followed by a pub lunch in magnificent sunny weather.

Here are an Alvis 12/50, Chenard Walcker, Vauxhall 30/98 and the Salmson at the pub.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 01 March, 2020, 09:13:43 PM
Gosh itís March already!

Steady Lancia progress, interrupted by the need to go over the steering of my Salmson which was becoming a little wandery. I overhauled the steering box making a new bush for the droparm shaft and new thrust washers for both box and kingpins. The steering is only ĺ turn from lock to lock so has to be set up with very little play in the system. A nice design touch is that the bronze bush for the droparm shaft is bored about 0.25mm eccentric and can be rotated to adjust the mesh of worm and wheel. The Salmson uses about 25mm of trail (stub axle mounted 25mm aft of the kingpin) to give straight running and self centering and the kingpin itself should have no rearward inclination (castor). It turned out that the springs have settled a little since last reset in 1985 which had tilted t the kingpins forward, partially negating the positive trail. Wedges between spring and axle with a 2.25 degree taper resolved that and a short test run on a salt free day showed a worthwhile improvement. So now back to the Augusta.

Iíve obtained a new clutch spring to replace the one which was fitted which was of too large diameter to fit into the retaining cover as well as being rather askew. Iím hoping that this old spring was the cause of the vibration which sent me into the intricacies of the transmission.

I have also trued up the driven dogs of the freewheel unit which were slightly tapered, resulting in end thrust under load which had worn the selector fork, a known Augusta problem. The selector fork was welded and ground true and I set the freewheel unit up on a mandrel on a dividing head mounted horizontally on my milling machine so that each tooth could be ground by a diamond grinding disk in the chuck of the mill. The diamond disc of 22mm diameter came in a set of 6 for (£5.45 delivered!! Silverline via Amazon). The mandrel supplied is far too skinny so I made another of 20mm diameter so that the disc is supported across almost the full diameter and runs very true. This worked a treat and the job of grinding the teeth took just minutes and no more than 0.002 inch was needed to dispose of the taper. Working out how to do it and making the mandrels took much longer!

Of course dismantling the free wheel to regrind the teeth involved letting loose the nine small rollers which ride the central cam to give the free wheel effect. This is a pain as the rollers come in three diameters varying by 0.5mm and have to be fitted in the right order which at first sight is tricky unless you are equipped with ten fingers on each hand. I made a sleeve to fit over the roller unit with a slot through which the spring, the spring loaded stop, the larger, middle and smaller rollers can be inserted for each group of three, turning the sleeve as each is popped in.  Again a two minute job with the right tool.

I dismantled the front suspension and built in hydraulic shock absorbers to remove the grease which was clogging everything. As mentioned earlier I found a coil bound spring in the relief valve at the bottom end of the offside shock absorber spindle. It also turned out that the springs of the two tiny pressure control valves in the piston of the shock absorber were too long and completely coil bound. As the travel of these valve is only about 1.5mm, an extra 1.5mm of length of spring completely blocks the valves so it is hardly surprising that  the ride was a bit bouncy.

I compared the spring rate of the dodgy springs with those which seemed to be original on the nearside shocker. This was easily done by inserting the spring in a blind hole in the end of a brass rod so that the spring projected from the rod, then with the rod in the chuck of a pillar drill, the spring was pressed down onto kitchen scales to show the load needed to compress the spring by 3mm. The spurious springs were significantly stiffer than the originals as well as being too long. Now coil springs are not quite as one might think as, if they are shortened by cutting off a few coils, they actually become harder to compress so that was not an option for me. Springmasters in Redditch have a huge catalogue of springs and within a couple of days I had a sample which seemed about right when tested. I bought three sets, weaker and stronger than the sample to try in situ and in fact my sample was the closest to the original. I then assembled the shock absorbers and oiled them to get a feel of their action. Result both shock absorbers had the proper easy action on bounce and stiff action on rebound, however the offside shock absorber was now noticeably stiffer than the nearside. I tried swapping shock absorbers from nearside to offside and the stiffness was related to the shocker not to the pillar which forms the cylinder in which the piston slides. Swapping the valve springs to put the weakest springs in the stiffest shocker improved matters so I will leave it at that. I did note that the piston of the weaker shocker had been chromed in the past but was still about 0.005 inches less in diameter than that of the stiffer one so quite probably leakage around that piston explains the difference in stiffness.

If you are wondering why shortening a coil spring makes it stiffer, imagine two spring torsion bars of different lengths. Twisting the shorter through a few degrees takes more effort than twisting the longer through the same amount. A coil spring is just  a coiled up torsion bar in which, when the coils are compressed, the twisting of the bar provides the resistance.

I managed to straighten the distorted main suspension spring for the offside pillar by brute force using a large pipe wrench to tweak the lowest two coils into line. All re-assembled and feeling quite free now it is properly lubricated. I must say I canít see how, when oil is applied to the top of the pillar, the excess over the running level can do anything other than dribble out over the knuckle of the axle for a couple of days as it has nowhere else to go. Just have to catch it with a bit of cardboard against the tyre and then mop the floor.

Hopefully the gearbox bits should be ready at HB Bearings next week so that both Lancia and Salmson will be ready for Spring, whenever that comes. :)

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 05 March, 2020, 02:45:33 PM
Mike,

Thank you very much for keeping us informed on the process of work on your Augusta.

Regarding filling the front shock absorbers with oil, I found the instructions from the owners manual resulting in a patch of oil on the floor (and tyre)
Unfortunately one does'nt know when the oil needs to be replenished unless most of the oil is gone and the wheels start bouncing.
When I want to know if there is enough oil and the shock absorber is working fine, I proceed as follows:
Jack up the front
remove front wheel(s) (for better access)
remove upper aluminium dust cover by unscrewing the oil nipple
unscrew top cover
remove damper rod drive springs upper, flat nut and lower.
Now the rod can be moved up and down full travel. There must be resitance felt in both directions, especially when reversing the sense of travel at the bottom. If there are any light spots, then there is air in the cylinder. By filling a little oil at the top of the rod and repeated movement of the rod, the air can be expelled. If there is uninterrupted resistance both ways, the absorber is fine and no more oil needs to be added.

I hope this helps

Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 05 March, 2020, 08:13:11 PM
Thanks Karl - a tedious process but it is logical. A very strange design oversight on Lancia's part! Perhaps one could fit a glass sight gauge to see the level as on a steam locomotive boiler. ;)

The oiler nipples are like the Enots equivalent fitted by Rolls Royce in the 1920's but smaller. I don't have an original oil gun and so I have to temporarily replace the nipples with a modern version to oil the pillar. I shall have to make an appropriate size connector for my oil gun.

I must say the whole process of oiling is a very messy job and can see why people were tempted to use grease. I bought a rather expensive Wanner oil gun which was claimed to be intended for oil not grease but it leaked oil everywhere as the pressurised oil flowed back past the piston and came out at the wrong end of the gun. I made a new piston in aluminium with an "O" ring to replace the rubbishy plastic piston supplied in the gun. This solved that particular leak and I suspect the gun supplied must have been fitted with the wrong piston in the first place.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: mikeC on 07 March, 2020, 08:32:22 PM
I have used a Wanner oil gun bought new in 1968; loaded with 140 oil it has never shown any sign of leaking ...


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Dikappa on 10 March, 2020, 05:29:28 PM
In 1968 they still made quality stuff....I was born in 1968  :D

Now it's just difficult to find quality gear, and sadly even a high price is not always a guaranty for good stuff.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 March, 2020, 09:58:22 AM
No physical progress this week as I am awaiting the gearbox bearings and so on from HB Bearings and hoping to collect them tomorrow.

However I've been looking closely to see whether is is possible to replace the free wheel with an overdrive 5th gear. Probably will never do it but the thought process keeps the mind ticking over and if it were done would be a nice improvement.

I'm thinking of a simple mainshaft/layshaft arrangement with helical gears for silence an a simple dog engagement. A very similar overdrive box is used in the US to fit in the torque tube of the Ford Model A. Sold as the Mitchell overdrive. It would involve making a modified layshaft for the main box and a new rear cover but no further modifications to the gearbox.

I'm curious to know how the fifth gear was done on the Ardea. Pictures of the Ardea 5 speed gearbox show what looks like an extra compartment at the back, although this is also present on the 4 speed version. Has anyone been into an Ardea box and are there any parts book drawings or even better proper sectional drawings?

I'm also a bit flummoxed with the gear pitch on the Augusta box. The plain spur gears for 1st and second are 3 Module pitch (three mm of pitch diameter per tooth) and there are a total of 39 teeth per set which indicates a shaft centre distance of 58.5mm which is correct. However the silent third gear which is helical is of a different pitch as the pair have a total of 41 teeth although obviously fitting the same shaft centres. My problem is that I can't find a matching pitch gear on any of the Goggleable gear charts. I'll have to take it to a gear cutter for advice - unless anyone reading this knows something.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 March, 2020, 03:24:47 PM
I came across this useful website

 https://www.carpdfmanual.com/lancia/

which has many Lancia manuals available free to download. There is a manual for the 4 speed Ardea which does show an empty compartment at the back of the main box. Perhaps Lancia always intended to offer the Ardea with 5 speeds but only implemented it after the war. I could just do with a sight of the manual for the 5 speed version.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 March, 2020, 10:00:58 PM
Found a drawing of the Ardea 5 speed unit on this site in the Ardea section.
https://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2742.msg53836#msg53836

 I need a bit of time to get my head round it but translating the design to the Augusta box does look feasable. At least when we locked down by the plague I'll have somethong to think about.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 16 March, 2020, 09:09:49 AM
The 5th gear of the late Ardea takes the drive from an extension of the layshaft on the main box and gears it up to a gear on the output shaft. A bit of a compromise because the layshaft is already geared down from the input shaft so the step up gear has to be correspondingly  higher ratio than it would be for a simple step up overdrive. I wonder if the Ardea 5th gear is noisy - has anyone any experience of this?
.
Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 12 April, 2020, 09:08:44 PM
Time flies when your having fun!  Lots done since my last report - in the garden (mornings, under supervision!!) as well as on the Augusta (pm). No time to think about 5th gear recently but will return to the subject later.

The front suspension is all back together, the new brake fluid reservoir in place and the brakes bled and refilled with new Dot 4 fluid. A Gunson pressure brake bleeding kit worked well as long as I pumped the pedal as each cylinder was refilled.

The gearbox shafts and new bearings were collected just before we were locked up. A snag arose in that the three deep groove double angular contact thrust bearings which are each attached to the end of a shaft by tightening a nut, proved to be tighter than seemed right so have to go back for rectification, at the moment held up by you know what.

I had planned to get the car up and running by now and to leave attention to the engine until next Winter. However I decided to lift the engine out, inspect what I can, deal with the oil leaks and fix anything else which turns up.

Working on my own with the aid of my engine crane, removal of the engine was straightforward, more so as the gearbox was already out. With straps looped around the engine bearers the engine is nose heavy (flywheel already removed) so an extra string looped around the fan pulley keeps it balanced. Unfortunately my home built engine support frame is a bit too wide and in any case would block access to the two crankcase side panels so the engine is now sitting on blocks on the floor - the effort of crouching down then getting up eliminates the need for less productive forms of exercise.

After a good scrub with solvent, and paint stripper on the cast iron parts I looked at all the gasketed joints to see where oil was escaping. It seems mainly from the fan bracket which acts as the front cover of the timing sprocket compartment, and from the crankcase side covers. The rear main bearing oil catching arrangement is fine and most of the leaks in that area came from the gearbox.

For those unfamiliar with the Augusta, the crankcase and sump are a single unit so that the crankshaft and bearings can only be accessed by removing the crankcase side panels which are pressed steel plates attached by means of screws along the rim. The gasket is compressed by the screws and tends to bulge between them letting oil out. Vintage Austin Seven owners will sympathise as their crankcase is closed at the  bottom by a similar plate which also leaks.

The immediate major problem was corroded studs, on the exhaust flange and the retaining stud for the water inlet elbow / tap. The exhaust flange has two 10mm studs with brass nuts, one of which unscrewed with some effort, more than I expected, while the other stud snapped, the nut being more or less fused to the stud.   Both studs were severely corroded.  I tried a roller type stud removing socket (which works in the same manner as the Augusta freewheel!) to no avail so had to resort to drilling out the core of the studs, and wangling the remaining thread out.  I shortened both studs to about 12mm, trued up the ends with a file and then made a sleeve bored 10mm to fit the stud at one end and 6.35mm (ľ inch)  at the other to fit a centre drill which would give me a true centre for the main drilling operation. I did this in two stages, first with a 6.35mm drill then (in another 10mm / 8.7mm sleeve) with an 8.7mm left hand drill bit, which clears the core of the stud, leaving just the thread behind. The left hand threaded bit came in an inexpensive set of 4 sizes from Sealey. No doubt the idea is good but the drill bit was far less able to bore into the stud than a normal drill bit and with a severely corroded stud, the L/H rotation failed to wind the threads out as it should so I pried out a couple of turns and then used an M10x1.5 bottoming tap ground flat on the end to make a clean cut. It is a very fiddly job, made more so by having to work with the engine on the floor and concern that I might damage the cylinder head but both studs came out leaving clean threads in the head.

I then had to tackle the manifold face on the head which was badly rusted and eroded. Two hours of filing and lapping made a reasonable job of it, although if the head were off, the milling machine would have been quicker.

The water inlet stud was corroded down from 8mm to 5.5mm at one point so there was
no chance that it could be unscrewed. The boss in the cylinder block into which the stud screws is recessed within the water inlet and so is truly hard to access but I was at least able to lay the engine on its side making it much easier to work. I cut the stud off flush with the end of the inlet pipe and made an 8mm/6.35mm sleeve to guide the centre drill and followed this up with another sleeve to take a 4mm drill down the stud as a pilot for the 6.35mm drill. This worked really well and the hollowed out portion of the stud came away in one piece with a very thin wall (imagine a corroded 8mm with a bore of 6.35mm) leaving me with a nicely centred 4mm hole into the remains of the  stud in the block. However  I now discovered that the boss had already been drilled and tapped 9mm, and worse, the tapped hole in the boss was about 0.8mm eccentric relative to the boss. I made a new stud, having spotted that the hole on the aluminium outlet fitting was offset, optimistically thought that would accommodate the offset. No such luck as the aluminium casting ( a repro version) had been machined slightly skew and would not seat properly on the block with the new straight stud. I set it up true in my aged milling machine and relocated the hole so at last it all goes together with the water passage of block and casting aligned.

The next job is to make new studs, stainless steel for the water inlet (this had already been done for the outlet on the head) but what would be the most suitable steel for the exhaust studs? Instinct says stainless steel but this has a reputation for galling up and seizing in hot conditions, and the exhaust port on the Augusta gets truly hot, believe me.
There is no need for huge strength so I thought perhaps mild steel with a brass nut would be the best choice. Has anyone any thoughts on this?


Mike







Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 27 April, 2020, 09:03:23 PM
The next job was to remove the cylinder head to make sure there are no particular issues leading to excessive heat in the exhaust port area. Easier said than done as the stud holding the head at that corner was completely seized into the head and so had to be drilled out. Not easy as I could see no way of mounting the engine under the pillar drill to keep the job aligned. However I managed to drill the stud down to about 12 mm above the face of the block, then used a mini jack between the exhaust outlet and the bell housing to raise the head - very carefully after heating the corner of the head to 200C. The roller type stud remover was able to grip the remains of the stud and with heat, it unscrewed so no more nerve wracking drilling was needed. When I said I would retire to stud I didnít mean this!!

With the head off I found that the waterway between block and head, right in the exhaust corner was just a tiny 5mm hole, whereas the gasket has an 11mm hole at this spot. I suspect the engine is rather a bitza and that the block and head are earlier than the 1936 date of the car. Later cars have a 10mm hole in block and head as per the gasket so perhaps this small hole was a factor - certainly the flow of water in this corner must be minute. I enlarged the hole, having to slightly offset it from the 5mm hole to line up with the gasket. The other water passageways which wriggle their way around the internal inlet and exhaust ports all seemed to be clear of crud and I soaked the head for 24hrs in Fernox F3 central heating descaler.

Iím mulling over whether to take the common route of adding a second exhaust port on the side of the head to divert the exhaust from cylinders one and two, or whether to seek another way of removing heat from the back corner with an extra water outlet at that point, or perhaps feeding more water in by means of an auxiliary electric pump. Itís not a case of general overheating, just that local hot spot. As the Augusta when new clearly worked in a hot Italy driven by hot shoe Italians, perhaps, having enlarged the hole, I need do nothing more.

Now for the good news, the head has all new guides and valves which will just need a light regrind, the bores are oversized to 71mm and seem unworn. It has new Alloylit pistons which look perfect. The crank has been reground but it is only about 0.35 mm undersize, the journals are unworn and the white metal bearings are perfect. The cam drive idler bearing and eccentric spigot is unworn, the camshaft bearing bores in the head have no play, the cams are slightly worn but the rocker arm cam follower faces need a regrind so I shall have to copy Morris Parry's grinding rig.

However it is just as well Iíve opened it up as the split pins on the conrod bolts were badly fitted and too thin so that some had worn and fallen out.  Why were they like this? Presumably because it is so damned fiddly to get the castle nuts and the hole on the bolt to line up, while at the same time trying to apply the right torque to the nut when the only access is via the open sides of the crankcase. One useful tip is to make a couple of small centre punch marks on the free end of the bolt, wiping them with white paint or Tippex so that the alignment of the hole can be seen as the nut is tightened. To get the alignment and torque right I had to skim a minute amount from the underside of the nut - not much as turning the nut by one flat only represents 0.16 mm. I would I have used all metal (Philidas) self locking nuts in this situation to avoid split pins but so far I have not found such nuts with the correct 1mm pitch and in any case my bolts are fractionally too short for the self lockers.

I need to get a new gasket - most likely from Johnson's Gaskets whom I have used before - he's speaking of a 2 week delivery time on receipt of my old gasket, which as seen in the photo is of the original type. The new gasket will be copper/asbestos substitute which I hope will better transfer heat than the more modern composition variety.

Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 28 April, 2020, 08:54:33 AM
With great interest I follow your findings of your Augusta engine. Now you have reached the "hot spot". Many years ago this problem was raised initially by Kees Jan Boosman. I always wondered why I did'nt have any heat problems on my car but other Augusta owners had problems and even went to great lenghts to modifiy the cylinder head by fitting a second exhaust port.
Over time, I was able to inspect a number of cylinder heads and compare the connections of the water channels near the No. 4 Cylinder. I found that at some cylinder heads one or more water channels where blocked, this of course would impair the cooling of this particular hot spot. My guess is that on some cylinder heads, during the casting process, the very small sand cores have collapsed and closed up the water channels. On the photo I have marked the channels by colored wires. I have fond that on some cylinder heads the blue and/or the red channel were blocked. Obviously those cylinder heads will not stand up to the heat and cracking of the valve seats etc. can occur.
The diametre of the water way between block and head is 6 mm by original drawing, I did enlarge that to 11 mm as well.

Originally, there were treads for attaching the water outlet and tap, not studs.

Regarding the conrod bolts, I think it was a good idea to check the split pins. I once had a split pin gone astray and the result was the conrod going through the side cover. Some times a small mirror helps to align the castellated nut with the bore in the bolt.

Regards  Karl



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 28 April, 2020, 09:51:34 AM
Karl all the passageways you trace with coloured wire were clear even before I de-scaled the head so the problem must relate to the hole we have both enlarged. I see from the cylinder head discussion in the Augusta Newsletter that people have been able to drill through that hole and enlarge the passageway behind the spark plug. On my head I would not dare do that as there does not seem to be enough metal there for a larger hole to be made, although the passageway itself is clear.

I have also pushed a wire down the long water passage above the exhaust, feeding the wire in through the water outlet at the front of the head. The wire went right to the end of the passage so there is neither crud nor foundry sand left there.

I wonder whether, without modifying the head I could draw more heat out at the critical end of the exhaust outlet by inserting a finned copper plate in place of the gasket between head and exhaust downpipe. I would make it 12 or 15mm thick, the same general shape as the gasket/flange but with three fins projecting radially outward 15mm or so.

I wonder if in its earlier life the carburation was running too weak which would have led to overheating. I did have a problem with an incompatilblity between the fuel tap which is Augusta, and the fuel filter which is Ardea which requires the filter to be mounted at a slight tilt to avoid restricting fuel flow. This might not be noticed on flat roads but was immediately obvious on our Yorkshire hills. It took me some time to find out why the engine just faded away on hills but was fine on the flat and did not get too hot in normal use. It certainly performed better once I'd worked this out.

I must say writing this up on the forum certainly helps to bring ideas into my head -as well as the Augusta's ;)

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: lancialulu on 28 April, 2020, 01:30:04 PM
What surprises me is the "fire ring" of the gasket especially over #4 is perilously close to (and also covers (seen from Karl's photo) those miscreant water ways. On a much later lancia engine of the Fulvia the head gasket has a few punched out holes for water ways that do not line up with the holes in the head/block castings. The thought was they developed the gasket to act as a restrictor to get the right temperatures around the block/head. It is a weird though.

To lob another idea into the pot, from the research of modern fuel in classic engines, it has been found that classic engines with distributors run better with about 5 degrees of extra static advance. So running by the manufactures settings is in effect causing more heat than optimum running (more power less heat). We all know a retarded engine gets hotter. Just a thought....


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 28 April, 2020, 09:19:01 PM
Yes the holes in the gasket are far smaller than those in the head. The Augusta Newsletter reported some experiments to investigate the water flow which did indeed show that the flow could be modified but I'm not convinced that any of us know better than Lancia did when the engine was developed.

You could be right on the ignition/fuel issue but that will await the end of lockdown and remantling the car. When investigating the mixture problem I was very tempted to buy an Air Fuel Ratio gauge and in fact ordered one which failed to arrive as the importer went bust. I did get my money back. I had previously fitted one to a Twenty hp RR and found it very useful to control Mr Royce's strange carburettor. The Weber on the Augusta is also a bit odd as the "choke" is also a lean mixture control and to use that function it would be good to know what is going on. I recommended the AFR gauge to my ex business partner who has a Phantom 2 of 7.6 litres - the gauge he said, paid for itself very quickly - easy when you are getting 12mpg.

I cleaned up the valves this evening - the exhaust valves and seats of the two rear cylinders were noticeably more eroded than the others.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 01 May, 2020, 08:45:40 PM
When I cleaned the head with Fernox F3 descaler the brew was blue-green afterwards which I assumed was a part of the process. Once the head was dry I could see the same blue colour on the internal ports but again thought nothing of it.


Today on looking inside the block and scraping off deposits I found the same blue colour, underneath the deposits, almost like paint. I wonder if this was some early means of reducing corrosion? The block has not yet been chemically descaled so it's not that. Any ideas?


Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 02 May, 2020, 08:13:12 AM
My guess: The colour of the anti-freeze backed onto the hot exhaust channel.

Regards  Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 May, 2020, 09:22:48 PM
Gasket ordered from Bob Johnson who quoted £96 and 2-3 weeks delivery.

I looked for a source of new big end bolts and found that the MGs from TB to TD, and the 1950ís Wolseley 4/44 which use the XPAG engine have a bolt which is suitable, being M8 x 1mm pitch, a size which was used in the UK from the 1920ís to the 50ís and known as System International (SI). The only variation being that the MG bolt has a filet radius under the head whereas the Lancia bolt is relieved at that point, a slight countersink on the seating on the rod would solve that. They are available either as very high tensile (12.9 grade) which are very carefully torqued up to a measured amount of stretch and do not need locking nuts, or in a more normal (presumably Grade 10.9) variety with a castle nut and split pin. I dismissed the extra strong variety as there is no way to set the torque so accurately since no torque wrench will fit through the crankcase side panel. (Picture 46). Unfortunately the other variety when I bought a set turned out to be a disappointment as they were not accurate in diameter and a slack fit to the rods. So at the moment I shall content myself with checking the existing bolts, which seem OK and not stretched or otherwise dodgy.

The head  is away to have the face resurfaced in honour of the new gasket and the exhaust seats ground. The valves and guides seem good, the guides new and the valve stems a very good fit so nothing needed there. However Iíve just been advised that the number 4 exhaust valve head can fall off due to the excess heat in that corner and that there is a stainless steel Nissan valve which can be fitted so Iíll mull that over.

The next job was to look at the water pump body for corrosion, to replace the ball race at the pulley end which was noisy at tickover,  and check the bronze bearing and seal on the spindle at the impellor end.

They are a bit fiddly to dismantle and at least one special tool is needed. The bearing is retained in the pulley by a threaded disc which has four peg holes to take a tool rather like those used to take the disc off an angle grinder. Luckily I had an adjustable version of this which worked well, provided the pegs are kept tight into the holes. A hydraulic puller with claws long enough to bite on the solid part of the pulley removed the pulley from the bearing.(Picture 47)

Next to remove the ball race from the housing another tool was made following Morris Parryís design with four short pegs on the rounded end which fits into the plug. The pegs were cut from the shank of a 4mm drill bit and were pressed with drop of Loctite into slightly undersize holes in the end of the tool. I found that putting the pump body in the chuck of the lathe and pressing the peg spanner with the tailstock allowed the plug which retains the bearing to be unscrewed. The bearing was then pulled off using another puller which by chance was exactly the right size. (Picture s 47,49,50,51)

So with it all dismantled I found that the alloy pump housing was fairly corroded but that although the spindle is worn a little by the traditional asbestos gland seal, the rest of the spindle and the bronze bearing are sound. As the gland does not leak in use I shall leave that alone and just replace the ball race. This is an odd size, but available from Simply Bearings. KG Brand 98305 Deep Groove Ball Bearing 25x62x12mm. I would have preferred a higher quality SKF but the KG seems to be the only one around and for £6.24 plus post and VAT I can hardly complain. A similar size double sealed bearing is used on the crankshaft of a Vespa scooter and seemed a good choice for the pump. However these are C3 grade which means a relatively slack clearance for use in very hot situations and I am told would probably be noisy at radiator temperature.

The corrosion of the pump casing is not terminal (he said hopefully!) so I shall use JB Weld Original metal filled epoxy putty to protect the corrosion. I have even used ordinary Araldite in similar situation before so the JB Weld should do the trick. (Picture 52)

Mike








Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Dikappa on 16 May, 2020, 10:33:59 AM
Mike,

Following my experience with the aurelia engine valve drop, I would suggest renew them if a suitable replacement is available.  I would'nt take the risk as the extra cost is probably low in the total rebuild cost....


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 16 May, 2020, 02:24:34 PM
Mike,

Following my experience with the aurelia engine valve drop, I would suggest renew them if a suitable replacement is available.  I would'nt take the risk as the extra cost is probably low in the total rebuild cost....
I agree. Mine are Nissan and needed very little modification to make them fit.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 16 May, 2020, 02:46:17 PM
John do you have the part no or model for the Nissan valve and what mods are needed to make it fit. It was your experience mentioned to me by Mike Rauhaage which put me on to this. Does it go with the original Lancia springs and valve collets and caps? It does seem a good idea while I'm in there. Thanks.
Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 16 May, 2020, 06:34:12 PM
Sorry, no. I didnít keep a record of the part number. I had to modify where the collets fit to suit the Lancia collets. I remember taking an Augusta valve to Paines near Oxford and asked ďwhat have you got like this?Ē


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 16 May, 2020, 09:28:22 PM
I'll delve a bit myself on the valves then. I've used similar stainless grade valve (ex Austin 1100) in my Salmson and they last very well - so far at least 65,000 miles.

Iím thinking about the problem of the overheating corner of the cylinder head due to the integral manifold and tortuous water circulation in that area.  Having no spare cylinder head I donít wish to make an extra exhaust port for cylinders 1 and 2 which has been used solve the problem but I have a couple of ideas to throw at you for comment.

First and very simply replace the usual copper/ĒasbestosĒ gasket at the flange joint to the down pipe with a sort of heat exchanger to draw heat from the flange on the head. This would consist of a sandwich of 3mm copper plates, three of normal flange outline alternating with three of similar outline but 12mm larger all round to form fins. It has the advantage of eliminating the insulating layer of ďasbestosĒ.

Secondly and also rather simple, increase the coolant flow by fitting an auxiliary 12volt electric water pump drawing from the bottom of the radiator and feeding to the back of the cylinder block above the starter motor with an internal nozzle directed upwards at the 10-11 mm water passage to the head right at the back corner. The nozzle might also have a sort of venturi effect, pushing more water from the block into the head. This would enhance the flow, rather than possibly interfering with it if the additional water were fed directly into the head. One of these pumps  advertised has water pipes of 10mm bore and flows 9 litres of water per minute which sounds about right when compared to the output of the main pump which I read is 36 litres/minute at 2600 engine rpm The auxiliary pump could no doubt be electrically controlled to lower output if needed and or thermostatically controlled.

Any thoughts?

Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 17 May, 2020, 01:22:52 PM

My only thought on the cooling issue is that you're breaking new ground, so doubt there's a substitute for experiment.  As for which to try first?  The heat sink is a lovely idea.  Perhaps the challenge is knowing if its working.  How are you going to measure temperature at the spots that matter?

With the rest of progress greatly enjoyed from my arm chair.  Using the lathe to hold that tool in place was clever.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 17 May, 2020, 08:34:23 PM
Mike, The valves are from a Nissan Vanette Serena 2.3 D LD23
Sorry, meant to have included that info.
Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 18 May, 2020, 08:32:29 AM
No easy way of measuring temp inside apart from adding a thermometer probe to the back of the head but experimentally an IR thermometer gives a good local reading of the outside of the casting.

Thanks for the valve info Mike

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: GG on 18 May, 2020, 01:21:22 PM
Don't know too much about Augustas, so forgive adding to this interesting thread.

On the exhaust port issue - attached find a revision done in Australia, that looked pretty impressive. One can imagine that long periods of high speed running (expressway?) wouldn't make cyl 4 area very happy. This seems like a pretty good solution which I'm sure you all know....

On the choke mechanism - just learned that the early Aurelia B20 with two single barrel Weber 32DRSP carbs had an odd choke mechanism - where there was off, then fully out was choke on, but the middle position was called "ESA" or Economy-Super-Aspiration, and leaned the mixture out. Might be similar.... More detail here: http://www.lanciaaurelia.info/carburetors1.html

If there are more images of the crankshaft in the car, please post! Fascinating to see. Especially the center bearing housing.
Interested to see how you end up.

Thanks!


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 18 May, 2020, 06:28:51 PM
The extra port is an attractive idea or would be if I had a spare head (for the car of course :)) but as there are many who run Augustas without major problems and the cooling  must have been alright in Italy when new Iím looking for a less radical solution.

I have a feeling that the long term owner and restorer of the car in Italy probably used it more for shows than energetic motoring as when I first ran it I had a lot of trouble with fuel starvation on long hills or at speeds over 50mph. This turned out to be due to a design incompatibility between the fuel filter which is Augusta, and the tap which is Ardea, a problem which took a long time to diagnose but once done, noticeably improved the performance as well as the starvation. I suspect it had been running too weak for years.

Augustas like mine with the Weber carburettor have the same economy weak mixture control as Geoffrey mentioned on the Aurelia. It is a quirky  feature which Iíve avoided using until, in future I fit an Air Fuel Ratio gauge so I know what is going on.

I found a very neat Bosch auxiliary water pump which looks ideal and is small enough to fit neatly under the dynamo, taking no more room on the left side of the engine than the Autoclean oil filter does on the right.

I've cleaned and dismantled the starter motor, a superbly made Bosch unit. Despite being fed 12v rather than the desiged 6V it seems in good shape, although the armature shaft has a bit of end float which can be resolved with a thin spacer washer. I'll also need to get the very slim spring which should be there to keep the pinion from tinkling against the starter ring as the original was missing.


Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 19 May, 2020, 08:18:04 AM
Hello all,
I am sorry, I cannot share the opinion that the Augusta engine has a tendency to drop valves. There is no history on that. It is true that there are heat problems on some Augusta cylinder heads and the cause has been found almost certainly beeing faulty castings. The lack of essential water channels causes overheating around No. 4 cylinder and the exhaust port. In general, the Augusta engine is capable of many ten thousends of km running if everything is within factory specs. It can climb the Stelvio pass 2760 m / 9000 ft without fuss or do 900 km / 560 miles on motorways in 12 hours incl. stops for petrol and food. Lancia quality.
Pardon my English.

Regards Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 19 May, 2020, 10:23:59 AM
Karl - I'm happy to be guided by your experience on this - you car has been in the family for longer than many of us have been alive (not me though!). The only caveat would be if modern fuels do not suit the engine (I'm not worried about the ethanol content though as that was around throughout the 1930's to 1960 in the UK in Cleveland Discol at 15%) and if the car is driven too hard on motorways, remembering that it was probably rare in the past for a car to be able to go at full speed for more than a few miles - certainly in the UK. I'm just going to do what I can to cool that corner of the head.

Your English is perfect - a whole lot better than my Swiss ;). We lived in Bex les Bains in the Canton of Vaud for 9 months in 1963 and have very happy memories of that.

Cheerio
Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: lancialulu on 19 May, 2020, 11:08:36 AM
Karl - I'm happy to be guided by your experience on this - you car has been in the family for longer than many of us have been alive (not me though!). The only caveat would be if modern fuels do not suit the engine (I'm not worried about the ethanol content though as that was around throughout the 1930's to 1960 in the UK in Cleveland Discol at 15%) and if the car is driven too hard on motorways, remembering that it was probably rare in the past for a car to be able to go at full speed for more than a few miles - certainly in the UK. I'm just going to do what I can to cool that corner of the head.
Ethanol petrol does not burn hotter according to the new book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Classic-Engines-Modern-Fuel-Solutions/dp/1787115909

worth a read through....


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 19 May, 2020, 08:54:09 PM
I dressed up the JB Weld repair on the pump impeller - more functional than pretty.(53)

Here is the starter drive pinion (54). There seems to be nothing to stop the pinion from floating forward to tinkle against the flywheel which it sometimes does. I thought a light spring was missing but now I donít see how that would work as it would be squashed against the main spring when engaged. Can anyone advise?

The dynamo (55) is an original 6v Bosch marked RG 90/6 but running on 12volts with a replacement regulator (56) marked 12/130. I assume this permits the dynamo to operate on 12v which it seems to do happily. Can any electrical expert out there confirm that this is the case?

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 20 May, 2020, 08:34:17 AM
Mike,
I see you have one of the rare steel dogs.

On your starter motor the return spring is missing. I hope you have a spring maker on hand nearby. At rest, the dog is pulled back to the flange. On starting, the inertia enables the dog winding towards the ring gear and stops at the the heavy spring.

The dynamo does what the regulator tells it whatever voltage. However the voltage and current should be checked when back in use. Nominal output is 90 Watts. I think it will stand 130 Watts.

Regards  Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 20 May, 2020, 10:26:30 AM
Karl - my pinion may be the wrong one as I can find no hole to insert the wire tag of the spring. I suspect it will be too hard to drill but I can try - if you can tell me where! I assume it was drilled from the outside of the cylindrical part of the pinion.

There is a hole in the shaft which was invisible at first but visible now that I have fitted a spacer to reduce the end float of the shaft.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 20 May, 2020, 01:00:44 PM
I have a spare one left from a batch I had made a few years ago, so will send it to you. Is your address as in the latest (2013) VSCC list of members, ending in 5SY? Regards, John 


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 20 May, 2020, 01:02:53 PM
I won't send the pinion,  just the spring. It won't go 'till Friday, 'cos I'm not allowed out. My "shopper" help will post it.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 20 May, 2020, 02:05:29 PM
Brilliant John - thanks. We moved so I'll email our new address. We also have the same post problem - yesterday a friendly council chap who was sweeping the carpark played posty for me.

I can see the missing hole on your picture so will now experiment to see whether carbide drills, rotary burrs or diamond tipped tools will do the job. The pinion is hard!

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 24 May, 2020, 08:29:11 PM
Success! I found I could drill the starter pinion for the antitinkle spring using a carbide drill bit. (60)Tricky but 3000rpm in the milling machine with light pressure on the drill and cutting oil did the trick. I bought two 1.5mm bits, one of which became blunt immediately but the other, of a different brand, went through the 6mm thick rim of the pinion with no problem.

The starter and dynamo are ready to fit, these and a lot of other engine parts having been cleaned, phosphated, primed and top coated with POR15 Engine Enamel, a heat resistant paint which brushes on without brush marks.

Iím fairly convinced that adding an auxiliary water pump to feed to the hot corner of the head is possible without major irreversable modifications and worthwhile. I decided that if I put more water in I also need to help it out as the aluminium elbows to the radiator hoses are only 19mm bore, although the ports into the pump and out of the head are larger. I fabricated a new outlet elbow with 23mm bore and this now awaits a visit to the welder when we are unlocked (61).

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 31 May, 2020, 09:04:03 PM
I decided to make a new spindle for the water pump as the original, although the gland did not leak, was quite worn at that point. I was unable to find any stainless steel bar which was of exactly 10mm diameter as per the original so had to machine one, lapping the last couple of thou to size, making the taper and machining the recess for the half round Woodruff key. This involved making a cutter for the task which was easier than I expected using a piece of EN 19 alloy steel and cutting the teeth in the milling machine. The cutter was hardened by heating cherry red and quenching in 50/50 kerosene and engine oil. The challenge was that it is small since the key is a chord, 2.5mm deep, cut from a 7.5mm diameter x 2mm thick disc. The key, as you can imagine, is very easy to lose!

I had to machine out and re-make the spring loaded washer which compresses the packing of the gland as it was jammed in the housing and lastly to drill out the rivet holding the impeller to the old shaft to replace it with a taper pin.

I received the new gasket from Johnsons Gaskets, within two weeks as promised. Here it is laid over the original which it matched very closely, so closely that you can't see the original.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 28 June, 2020, 08:33:22 PM
I made an experimental heat exchanger to fit between the exhaust manifold outlet and the down pipe as I suggested in an earlier post (photo 65). I concluded the only way to find out if it works is to try it. The fins are 12mm larger all round than the manifold flanges, in  3mm copper.

Likewise on the auxiliary water pump to add more coolant I bought a Bosch pump and rigged it up to test the output, measuring the flow with a water meter I have for the garden hose. The pump passes 12 litre per minute through a 10mm bore connection. Probably more than is needed so I shall need to slow the pump or provide a bypass for the excess, measuring the temperature at the corner of the head with  a thermocouple attached by magnet, and read on a multimeter. Iím still unsure about this idea but enjoy the experimentation. If I did go ahead the only modification to the engine would be a fitting to connect to the top corner of the cylinder block and a connection to draw water from the radiator bottom tank. (Photo 66).However on close inspection I concluded that the water jacket on the cylinder block at that point is only about 4.5mm thick and that installing an inlet connection might be a bit risky so I have decided to wait and see whether the enlargement of the water passage from block to head, and the exhaust port heat exchanger do the trick.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 28 June, 2020, 08:43:46 PM

With the head back from resurfacing and a light re-cutting of the exhaust valve seats, I lapped all the valves, checking that they would retain a puddle of paraffin in the combustion chamber overnight and then turned to the numerous threads and studs which needed cleaning up. Luckily very few were stripped but I had a few calls to Tracy Tools when I did not have the right tap or die. A majority of the studs have a coarse thread into the casting with a finer thread for the nut and as they are high quality steel there is no point in using carbon steel (CSS) taps and dies but instead use HSS, high speed steel which are twice the price.

I next tackled the valve gear, finding that both camshaft lobes and rockers contact faces were scored. A chat with the ever helpful Morris Parry convinced me that I could make an improvement, short of having the cams reground, by carefully stoning the cams with the shaft held in the lathe so I could roll it while cleaning the cam profile with a fine lap stone. The rocker faces were a bit more difficult but following a plan suggested by Morris, I made a fitment to offer the rocker to  the side face of a bench grinder wheel to produce the proper curvature of the cam follower. The face of the rocker has a radius of 21.7mm and with the rocker fitted to a bush mounted on a lever pivoted at 21.7mm from the side of the wheel the lever can be rocked back and forth so the ďshoeĒ of the rocker is ground to the proper curve. Like many of these things it took a day or so of messing to get the fitment right and then half an hour to grind the rockers. One point to watch is that the shoe of the rocker is precisely aligned perpendicular to the face of the grinding wheel so that when offered up to the camshaft the face of the shoe contacts evenly across the cam. I found I could check this with a straightedge across four rocker shoes and could correct as needed by adjusting the packing under the ends of the base of my fitment which straddles both tools rests on the grinder. While grinding the rocker face the amount of ďcutĒ is adjusted by means of the tappet adjustment screw which presses against an angle bracket screwed to the moveable lever, pressure  being applied by hand, and limited by the screw.


Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 28 June, 2020, 10:22:52 PM

I'm enjoying this.  Heat sink looks good, fingers crossed...

In photo 69 the bolt to the far right very close to the grinder-to-rocker contact patch is the pivot-bolt.

What I can't quite visualise is how the cam was lapped and if the lathe "just" was "a posh vice" to hold the cam.  Did you need something to guide the stone like a "filing rest" or was it possible by hand?  My assumption is that you held the stone by hand, braced on perhaps the tool post, and swung the chuck back and forth by hand.

I also like the peek at the Salmson mudguard in the background.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 29 June, 2020, 08:25:56 AM
Yes the pivot is the bolt nearest to the grinding wheel and is placed at the radius (21.7mm) of curvature of the rocker face away from the grinding wheel so moving the pivoted lever allows grinding to follow the proper curve of the rocker. The stud on which the rocker sits is placed at 38mm from the centre of the rocker cam which is the radius of the rocker from the rocker shaft to the mid point of the rocker cam face.

I lapped the cams manually, starting with the 4 cams to the back of the camshaft which are aligned in pairs so that the lap stone straddles two cams which helps keeping it all aligned. The other set of cams are not aligned so a bit more care was needed. The action was a combination of rolling the camshaft in the lathe and movement of the stone. The wear on the cams was pretty much a series of grooves so I could lap enough to remove the grooves but not enough to change the profile. Probably only a couple of thou were removed.

All this was following Morris Parry's ideas for which I am very grateful.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 30 June, 2020, 09:10:49 AM
I like the rocker facing kit. This will be good for very worn rocker arms. For less damaged rockers I have been using a drill press with a grinding disk covered with a fine grit emery cloth, and then polished to a smooth surface.
The damage on the camshaft looks to me as exessive valve clerarance or bad lubrication or both. Many years (and miles) ago I have set the valve clearances on my motor from factory 0,25 mm to 0,10 mm inlet, and 0,15 mm exhaust valve. This gave a reduction in noise and therefore in wear and so far no ill effects have been noted.
Regards   Karl



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 30 June, 2020, 03:21:36 PM
As we say in the UK - many ways of skinning a cat! Probably not allowed to use that expression now.
I intend to polish my rockers now they are back to the right profile - the grinding wheel is a bit coarser than I would like. Probably by putting emery paper on the side of the wheel or by your system Karl.

The rocker clearances were not too great and it ran without much noise so I think the wear was due to poor lubrication as the rocker shaft had a lot of rubbish inside which took a long time to remove washing with kerosene and use of the airline. I've bought a Mann spin on filter and a block of aluminium to make the mounting to replace the Autoclean.

Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 30 June, 2020, 03:27:40 PM
To understand with the drill press - by "plunging" did the rocker rock against the elastic?

Can also see that's no ordinary drill press...  Was it made by Heusser or used by them? 



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 30 June, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
Hereís a curiosity. The 8 small ďsteam holesĒ connecting the block to the cylinder head have a copper insert, presumably put in with a small countersink to the face of the block, which reduce the hole from 5mm to 4.5mm. The oil feed hole which supplies the rocker shaft and rockers has a similar insert, also reducing the diameter from 5 to 4.5mm.

Has anyone else seen this feature on an Augusta block? The inserts projected about 0.25mm above the face of the block, possibly to compress the gasket around the holes, all of which are very close to the cylinder bore. The projecting parts were very uneven so I levelled them off in order to check the flatness of fit of the head to the block with a feeler gauge. Was this a mistake? As some Augustas (Belnas?) do without the small water holes the reduction of bore from 5 to 4.5mm is of no consequence but I wonder if it does matter for the oil feed to the valve gear and does the now missing projection matter?

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 01 July, 2020, 01:35:59 PM
I have seen this kind of repair before. The edges of the bores can corrode, causing leaks. An insert like this can save the block or head. IMHO the bores should not be closed complete, but a bit smaller diameter should be ok. They should be flush though. From factory the bores were 6 mm.

My drill press is a bit unusual I guess, as it has a sliding vice installed, which can be replaced by a flat plate. I bought it surplus from the Swiss Air Force in about 1985. I has done very good services in all the years. I think it's 60 years old or more. The manufacturer was MOSER AG, Heusser was the vendor.  I did grind the rockers by up-down movement against the rubber band. At one time I made a new trottle shaft for a Zenith carburettor and did cut the slot for the butterfly on the drill press, moving the vice by hand very carefully. The tools behind the drill press are back up tools. The everyday toolbox is on a trolly.

Regards  Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 01 July, 2020, 04:25:35 PM
Oh heck I'm going to have to tidy my workshop!!

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: frankxhv773t on 01 July, 2020, 05:35:10 PM
Mike, you could just claim that you are recreating the Scuderia Manning look.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 02 July, 2020, 07:48:46 AM
I must admit that I did tidy the shop before taking the photo.

Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 02 July, 2020, 08:46:38 AM
 :)

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: GG on 02 July, 2020, 03:15:35 PM
Is it fair to say that the radius on the rocker arm pad was not so difficult for them to make at the factory, but is a bit of a challenge to refurbish later? I could imagine most repair shops simply grinding and smoothing them, without attention to the radius. Thoughts?


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 02 July, 2020, 04:33:31 PM

Like so much of the work we get to enjoy here am sure many wouldn't bother, or would give it a quick go with a bit of emery paper, but isn't it lovely to see it done carefully?

In terms of "does it matter" the radius defines valve timing, a little bit.  One of the first tuning mods for an Austin 7 is to regrind the followers to a "flatter" profile to extend valve opening time.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 02 July, 2020, 09:04:03 PM
Yes the profile does matter. Many years ago Oliver Langton the speedway rider, VSCC Member and vintage RR enthusiast was building a 20hp Rolls Royce special and planned to exploit the very wild looking cams which went with roller tappets by swapping the rollers for profiled followers. Sadly that project was never completed. Oliver was the chap who found and restored the oldest surviving RR, a 1904 10hp, the only RR eligible for the Brighton Run. I suspect going from a roller to a flat follower would be too much but a good mathematician could probably work out something in between. No inappropriate jokes about Rollers please. ;D

The kit which Morris devised for grinding the follower is very simple - I suspect the thought process was the hard bit.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 10 July, 2020, 08:02:32 PM
Still awaiting some gearbox bits from HB Bearings - frustrated on the reassembly of the box but this week I made an adapter to take a modern screw-on filter in place of the Autoclean, hoping to maintain a clean flow of oil to the camshaft department. Dale Hicks kindly sent some drawings and the trusty but aged Beaver milling machine did the job. Some concentration is needed as it is very easy to confuse the in and out ports from the crankcase to the adapter when drilling holes to form the oilways inside the adapter. Photo 75.

When I took the cylinder head off I did not choose to remove the timing gear from the crank or the timing chain but found that a block of wood placed on top of the block can support the tiimng chain and allow the engine to be turned without entangling the chain which just turns round the block of wood like a sprocket. Photo 76

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: neil-yaj396 on 13 July, 2020, 08:13:01 AM
Very impressed with your adaptor Mike. What car/cars is the cartridge for, and what made you decide on that size?


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 13 July, 2020, 08:47:51 PM
I take no credit for the design of the adapter which I think originated in Australia, and as I said I made mine from drawings by Dale Hicks. It does make a neat job and with that spin off filter which is only 50mm deep, fits into the space previously occupied by the Autoclean filter leaving enough clearance to the front structure of the car to allow the canister to be easily replaced, although I imagine a bit of an oil slick will be released. The filter is used on many cars, particularly Renault and its derivatives like Dacia. The version W75/3 from Mann has a 20mm x 1.5 mm thread for which I fortunately had the correct die. The W75 version has a similar size but Imperial thread and is used on other makes.

Today I looked at the idler sprocket which adjusts the tension of the camshaft drive chain. The sprocket is sprung loaded and rides on a spigot in the timing case at the front of the block - guess what? The spigot shaft was worn which creates an extra means of escape for the oil which is supposed to be going up to the camshaft and rockers. The spigot is made integral with its supporting bush but that can be bored out to remove the old spigot and a new one machined to fit - done today, and the spigot is in the freezer overnight ready to press into the bush tomorrow.

I've also fitted the cylinder head using Blue Hylomar on the gasket an both faces and then torquing the nuts to the studs. The studs are 12mm and will take more torque than is needed, although I was surprised how much pulling on my 10inch  torque wrench is needed to get to 62lbs/ft (85N/m). I tightend the bolts in 5N/m stages and have got up to 52 Lbs/ft and will leave it at that for now and do the last tweak when I'm ready to start the engine.

I made a discovery today when looking at the block. Within the timing case there are two small lugs obviously intended to carry something which was not present on my car. The parts book does show a small curved widget but what is it for? Turns out from the Italian part number lists that it is a support to hang the camshaft sprocket on when the cyliinder head is removed. i just used a bit of wire!


Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 July, 2020, 09:04:35 PM
I finished the timing chain tensioning sprocket mounting and am ready to fit the chain and set the valve timing. One question - is there a recommended way of adjusting the spring loading on the tensioning sprocket? It can rotate eccentrically on its mounting, restrained by a helical spring which is adjusted by rotating the mounting on the three studs which hold it to the block. I assume it is just set to the tightest position, relying on the natural tension of the spring, unless anybody knows different.

The gearbox input shaft returned today - late but beautifully done and fitted perfectly.

I'm now battling with the dreaded freewheel. The usual advice is to put a zip tie around the 9 little rollers to keep them in place as it is assembled - does not work easily as they are spring loaded up the ramp cam and so expand to a greater diameter than the bore of the drum in which they work.  All of this goes on inside the back compartment of the gearbox while trying to hold the outer splined engaging/disengaging sleeve out of the way and pushing the  tailshaft and driven drum in through the back of the box and then sliding the engaging sleeve over the outside of the drum. The fit of the engaging sleeve is very tight on the drum too. Just wishing for a nice simple Bugatti to work on!! Oh and yes I forgot - the three rollers in each set of three are of three diameters and have to be in the right order.

I imagine Lancia must have had some form of clamp to hold the rollers so tomorrow's challenge will be to re-invent it.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 16 July, 2020, 04:04:03 PM
For installing the free wheel rollers I have been using strong rubber bands or a hose clamp.

I have never seen an instruction as how tight the chain tensioner must be adjusted. From memory I have been turning it about 1/4 turn or a bit more. Perhaps other Augusta boys out there know better?

Regards   Karl



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 16 July, 2020, 09:08:55 PM
Success with the rollers - a friend loaned a cable tie tightening tool which made it possible to progressively tighten the ties with one hand while using a screwdriver to compress the springs and guide the rollers to the lower part of the cam.

The next problem Karl is one you will recognise - as I mentioned some time ago the driving dogs on the output shaft were a bit tapered, which I was able to correct. There seemed to be no sign of overheating. although the selector fork needed building up. However the sliding splined sleeve which engages and disengages the free wheel was tight on the output shaft makng it impossible to assemble, a very fiddly job at the best of times. The sequence is to fit the freewheel unit to the tailshaft of the main gearbox (this is within a second compartment at the back of the gearbox), offer the sliding sleeve down through the top of the gearbox, push the output shaft in through the back of the box, slide the sleeve onto the output shaft then push the shaft fully forward onto the rollers and lastly heat the casing and press the back ballrace onto the output shaft and into the casing. If the sliding sleeve is tight, the task is impossible!

It seems that the sliding sleeve is slightly distorted oval by about 0.04mm (1.5 thou), just enough to be a problem. The previous owner had commented that the Augusta freewheel was a problem and it was locked out of action when I bought the car - perhaps this is why. So as the point of contact between the sliding sleeve and the output shaft is the peak of the splines inside the sleeve I plan to just grind away the very minimum to allow free sliding rather than risk trying to de-ovalise the whole unit in the vice! Although not obvious at a glance I could just see some signs of blueing of the bore of the sleeve so the distortion must have been caused by overheating due to friction in the selector fork.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 10 August, 2020, 09:05:07 PM
Augusta freewheel thoughts and ideas.

Iíve spent much time on the Augustaís freewheel which has delayed putting the gearbox back together but the subject is interesting enough to merit a detailed discussion so here goes!

I had thought all along that  using the  freewheel was probably not a good idea when driving an old car in current traffic, particularly on the hills around here. Discussions with fellow Augusta owners confirm that few of them use the freewheel and that some even disconnect the Bowden cable and wire the actuating lever in the permanent drive position, as had been done to our car. The previous owner in Italy had commented on YouTube that the freewheel can cause problems, so I expected the worst and never even tried the freewheel on the road, expecting to leave it disabled.

The freewheel is very similar to that used on Rovers from the 1930ís to the 50ís, with a three lobed driven cam which expands three sets of rollers outwards with a wedging action into a surrounding drum which takes the drive to the output shaft of the gearbox. When driving the rollers expand, assisted by a spring, but on the over-run they are rolled back down the cam allowing the drum to turn faster than the input shaft. A sliding internally splined sleeve, permanently engaged with six teeth on the outside of the driven drum is moved forward by a gear selector fork to engage with a six toothed dog on the input shaft, giving permanent drive, or backward, out of engagement with the input dogs to activate the freewheel. All the parts are superbly machined and surprisingly small and delicate, the drum being only 50mm bore and the rollers approximately 7.5, 8.0 and 8.5mm diameter and 20 mm long. At the front of the unit, running within the drum, and on a short length of 32mm diameter shaft between the front driving dog and the cam, is a set of three rollers 9mm diameter and 6mm wide, which act as the front bearing of the output shaft. These are static relative to both shaft and drum when the freewheel is locked, but rotate when the car is freewheeling.

Lots of wear was evident, both cam and the bore of the drum had axial ridges where the rollers took the drive and the rollers themselves had flats. The brass cage surrounding the rollers was quite worn where the ends of the rollers impacted the cage and it looked as though the rollers were trying to adopt a skewed angle to the cam rather than lying parallel. The 7.5 and 8mm rollers had at least two flats each whereas the largest 8.5 mm rollers had none. One obvious cause of the wear was that the bolt which holds the roller cage against the cam had sheared off, and lay loose inside the drum of the freewheel. This bolt is famously known to be a weak feature as despite the 12mm thread size, it has a 27mm hexagon which encourages  over tightening.

I think that Lancia  intended that the freewheel mode would be the normal way of driving as the freewheel selector is spring loaded towards the freewheel mode and is pulled into lockup mode by the cable. The three rollers which carry the front of the freewheel drum are I suspect too few and too small for the job they are expected to do when in lockup.   This may not have been a problem when the free wheel was mostly engaged as the rollers turn and even up any wear. However if always driven in lockup mode the rollers may develop flats, eventually allowing the drum and the front end of the output shaft a small degree of wobble. Permanently locking the free wheel by disabling the actuating cable must be a bad idea and even if the owner has no interest in using the freewheel it should at least be allowed to work once per trip so as to rotate the bearing and discourage flatting of the rollers.

Driving constantly in the lockup mode also takes its toll on the driving dog teeth at the input end of the freewheel which, as we know tend to become tapered, putting a load on the selector fork, assisted by the coil spring trying to disengage the dog from the sliding sleeve and only restrained by the Bowden cable. My freewheel had suffered this and showed signs of overheating due to pressure of the sliding sleeve on the arms of the selector fork.

Having seen all this I decided that, rather than relying on disabling the freewheel and ignoring its worn out state, or going to significant expense and hassle to regrind the worn surfaces and replace the rollers for  a freewheel I did not wish to use, I would eliminate it altogether.

This turned out to be quite simple as an idea but needed accurate machining of a split collar to clamp onto the input shaft between the driving dog and the cam to act as a supporting bush for the front end of the driven drum in place of the three small rollers. Since the bush does not rotate relative to either drum or input shaft it can be a tight fit on the shaft and a push fit in the drum, just loose enough that the drum can be slid over the bush during  assembly. The brass cage with the freewheel rollers was removed and replaced with a washer drilled to take the locating peg on the end of the cam and for the tag washer for the cam retaining bolt. This all worked out well and there is now no detectable slop between input and  output shafts and it all rotates freely and true.

I was concerned about the lubrication of the driving dog and the splined sleeve which is achieved by oil flowing through the shaft between the main gearbox and the freewheel and emerging from holes in the splines to escape through the front (three roller) bearing into the drum and out to the driving dogs. To allow this to continue I grooved the bore of the new bush and its front face and also machined an annular groove in the bore in line with the holes in the splined shaft to help spread the oil.

Following a suggestion by Karl Sšnger, an idea which originated with Kees Jan Boosman, I reversed the sliding engagement sleeve. This increases the area of engagement between the splines of the sleeve and the driving dog. In the normal orientation of the sleeve, alternate splines at the front are cut away to facilitate the lining up of dog teeth and splines as lockup is engaged. As mentioned earlier, the splined sleeve was a tight fit on the outside of the driven drum and needed a very small amount grinding from the peaks of the splines, done with air powered grinding wheel mounted on the toolpost of the lathe. The selector fork has to be reversed to suit the repositioned sleeve and this involved drilling a new hole in the selector shaft for the locking screw of the selector fork to locate the fork in its new position. The hardened shaft cannot be drilled with a normal High Speed Steel drill bit but a carbide slot mill worked well. I also replaced the helical spring on the selector shaft with spacer sleeves to front and rear to keep the selector and sleeve in position, taking care to preserve a 3mm gap between the forward face of the driving dog and the dividing partition in the centre of the gearbox. This is a point at which wear can occur if the freewheel Bowden cable is too tightly adjusted. With the 3mm gap, the splined sleeve engages fully with the driving dog teeth, even allowing for some wear between selector fork and sleeve. Finally I removed the freewheel operating lever and blanked off its bearing in the side of the gearbox.

With all new bearings in the gearbox, reconditioned spigot bearings and the removal of the freewheel, the gearbox feels very smooth and free turning, although no doubt first and second gear will still growl away as before. Weíll see once I get the car back on the road.

Iíll add some pictures shortly Ė Iíve been a bit held up recently as the lawnmower and sundry gardening kit were given notice to quit their habitat in the potting shed which is now required for its proper function by the chief gardener. Iíve had to build a new shed as such mundane functional kit is not allowed to invade the car department!!

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 11 August, 2020, 08:37:14 PM
Mike,
Many thanks for all your posts and for this most interesting and detailed obsevation on the free-wheel.
I just resolved not to use mine believing that it would be reliable if not used, it seems I should worry a little.
Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 11 August, 2020, 09:24:48 PM
Mike - I'm just doing what seems to make sense from info from real Augustinians - before you tear yours apart to make the same changes I'd wait to see how mine works!!

Making the split collar was interesting - I started with a disc oversize on diameter and small in bore, sawed it in two, milled both sawn faces flat and drilled, threaded and countersunk for 4mm screws with heads reduced to 5mm. The two haves were bolted together and 4 holes made so that the unit could be attached to a disc to be held in the lathe and finally machined to size. The O/D was easy enough as the driven drum of the freewheel could be tried for size with the workpiece still in the lathe. the bore was more challenging as being smaller in diameter than the cam the size could only be determined by calipers etc.

Here are some pictures.

Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 12 August, 2020, 08:34:27 PM
Back to the engine.

Timing the valve gear is a fiddly process even with the engine on the bench - it must be a real pain when in the car.

I found that there had been a bodge when some previous fettler had failed to make the massive spring washer (which retains the cam wheel bolt and vernier adjustment washer to the end of the camshaft) seat properly as the bolt was tightened. In desperation the spring had been hammered and the washer distorted so a little remachining was needed. The recess at the camshaft side of the camwheel needed a few thou skimmed off to sit square on the end of the camshaft and the spring washer, an ugly very strong object, needed the ends of the coil ground to the right radius so it would fit into the recess in the vernier washer. The locating peg which does the vernier setting would not go far enough into the blind holes in the adjusting washer so the washer could not sit flat on the face of the cam wheel.

Anyway all came right with a little machining and after a few attempts I was able to get the timing right. I found the circlip which holds the vernier washer to the bolt is a pest as it prevented me from rotating the washer to align the peg while trying to engage the bolt with the thread in the end of the camshaft so I omitted the circlip - just needing a bit more care not to drop the vernier washer down into the timing case.

I've set the timing chain tensioner rotated by two bolt holes from the the neutral point of the spring. This feels about right and the free movement of the chain is about 8mm at the midpoint of the chain, observing this through the front timing cover. If anyone knows different I'd like to hear!

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 13 August, 2020, 08:46:47 PM
Thanks, the questions for me perhaps are, what symptoms might present if it is about to fail, what will happen if it fails and will it do any damage beyond the freewheel mechanism?
Re cam chain tension, I think I initially set mine to much the same but have just tightened it up another couple of holes as I could hear it. Now cured.
The most irritating current noise is the door latch rods rattling, I have wrapped the rods on two of the doors but not had a chance use it since.  There must have been some felt or something when new though no evidence of any.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 14 August, 2020, 08:56:02 AM
I can't say what the symptoms of worn out freewheel are although no doubt wear in the three small rollers at the front of the unit will allow a certain amount of wobble at the end of the gearbox output - I could detect that when disconnecting the propshaft. If you recall I started this saga in search of the cause of annoying vibrations which seemed more speed related than RPM related. Of course I found more than one ( the lopsided clutvh spring being the main suspect) and am resolving all I find, hoping that when it is back together I don't have to go through it again to get the engine balanced! So my experiment is a lousy one having changed more than one variable. Reminds me of an academic I once knew who spoke of testing shampoo on one side of his hair and soap on the other - result - went bald in the middle!

Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 14 August, 2020, 09:04:08 PM
They say that there is "No advice like the advice you want"  I am reassured by your comments.
I changed the fibre coupling at the gearbox end last week and there was no detectable play in the output shaft.
On another matter I am working on a casting for the tank mounted petrol gauge mechanism. Progress is a bit slow but do you want one when available and is anyone else interested? 


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 August, 2020, 08:14:50 AM
Tank casting - yes please Mike. I started on that but other more urgent problem arose!!
My new clutch spring turned out to be slightly too deep when fully compressed so had to go back to be ground down - only 5mm off the length but as the clutch travel is little more than that, the clutch could not be disengaged. Now I find it is about 1mm too small at one end to fit onto the clutch centre - today's task is to grind that out - interesting problem to grind a wobbly spring but I think I have a method.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 August, 2020, 08:19:38 PM
Yes I did. Made a block of ply sandwiched together with a central hole into which the spring is a good fit then set the job up in the lathe with the die grinder to take a smidgen off the bore at one end of the spring. Turned out that it was just the last coil which was slightly undersize.

Finally the spring is a good fit onto the boss of the clutch plate - just tight enough to hold in place - and fits nicely around the inner lip of the clutch cover plate. The spring is now true enough that with the spring uncompressed, the three corners of the cover plate are equidistant from the flywheel face to within 2mm.

If the previously fitted distorted spring was the cause of the elusive vibration, the new one should solve that issue. I'm hopeful that this will be the case as the vibration definately related to the clutch as a quick jab of the clutch pedal would temporarily reduce vibration.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 16 August, 2020, 01:38:55 PM

Love the block of ply and die grinder photo. 

My brother in law wouldn't let either into the same room as his lathe.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 16 August, 2020, 03:43:35 PM
His is probably less than 60 years old - I give mine a good clean up afterwards but it has to do whatever is needed including wood - just make sure sawdust doesn't get into the suds pump.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 26 August, 2020, 09:11:05 AM
After a hint from Karl I began to worry whether the new clutch spring, which follows the spec of a slightly stronger spring made for Augustas a couple of years ago, might be too strong for the cast clutch withdrawal claw (or whatever it is called) which has been known to shear by the retaining nut So I spent some time checking the spring rate of the previously fitted and new springs. I measured the load needed to compress the spring using bathroom scales and my pillar drill, noting the height of the spring with each additional 20 kg load. It turned out that both springs when loaded to 120kg were compressed  by 30-32mm. The compression in mm per kg of force applied was very uniform over the range I tested. However I realised that the new spring, being a bit longer to start with would, when compressed from 87 to 30mm, probably apply more load on the clutch as engagement compresses the spring very close to solid and more so in the longer spring.  As I could not apply more than 120 kg I made up a bar to turn the clutch actuating lever with the same 5 to 1 mechanical advantage as the pedal and used a large spring balance to measure the force need to disengage the clutch, this being detected with a weight attached to the gearbox output spider. The original spring required about 10.5kg and the new one about 11.5 kg to disengage the clutch which is very close to the calculated increase in the spring design - phew!

As a further security I also crack tested the clutch actuating claw with a dye penetration detection fluid which is applied to the test sample and penetrates any cracks, to reveal these later when chalk is applied. Nothing showed up so I felt confident in using the stronger spring and could put the whole thing together again. The thrust bearing runs smoothly and the nut which retains the bearing showed no sign of brutal spannering.

As you can imagine each time I needed to test a spring in or out of the transmission I had to remove the gearbox, unload the spring and then put it back. I got quite good at the task!

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 27 August, 2020, 01:47:34 PM
Many years ago I fitted extra springs to my clutch, copying the design of Mike Wheeler. I spent some while with Bill May with various springs and my bathroom scales under my milling machine, rather like your set-up.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 27 August, 2020, 08:37:17 PM
 Bit more info, I bought a new spring when they were available a year or two ago before I had dismantled my car. When it came to it I reused the old spring  (not necessarily original) as it was marginally stronger. My notes show that when compressing the two in a stack the new one compressed by 29mm to 26 for the old one. Cannot find a note but my recollection is that the OD and wire section were the same but the new one had an extra quarter turn.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 27 August, 2020, 09:15:08 PM
John - I knew Bill May for more than 60 years from the mid 50's when a group of us did vintage holidays together - one year buying a Trojan in the Highlands and towing it back to Yorkshire with a Humber 12/25. A jolly good engineer and a good bloke. Coincidentally another participant was the late Tommy Longbottom, later known to the LMC when he owned an Augusta.

Mike - I also found that the new spring seemed marginally easier to compress in the middle range of compression which is almost linear which was why I did the test of pedal force. I suspect that at the extreme of compression when the spring is nearly solid the force/compression relationship goes non linear and the new "stronger" spring arrives at this point sooner than the old spring so applies more load to clutch and pedal. It is not much different though.

For those who have not removed the clutch and gearbox here are a couple of tips. Firstly before trying to pull the gearbox away from the engine the clutch engagement fork must be disengaged from the claw fitting which operates the clutch. In the normal position the clutch lever is tight up to the gearbox side.


At the other side of box the fiddly wire circlip must be removed from the end of the clutch cross shaft.

Then the clutch lever is pulled out about 10mm away from the gearbox which separates it from the claw so that the box can be removed. The box slides off quite easily if this is done so beware if you feel a need for crowbars!

The clutch spring is compressed by the cover plate, held down by three 5mm bolts, about 50mm long. These amazingly take the full 200kg pressure of the clutch spring. To remove the cover plate and unload the spring I made this fitting which takes the strain off the small bolts as they are undone. Slacking the bolts and the nuts on the fitting evenly by 6 turns at a time allows the cover plate to come away evenly without binding on the bolt threads. I found that there is still a small load on the bolts even when they are almost fully unscrewed so the fitting is useful to line it all up to start the bolts in the threads.


Mike
 


 


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 29 August, 2020, 12:52:03 PM
Thanks Mike we see another means of compressing the spring of the clutch. What we are not seeing is how the driven plate is centred for easy installation of the gear box. I am sure Mike will enlighten us. I am using a shaft which centres the driven plate onto the ball bearing in the fly wheel. At the other end of the shaft, there is a female 8 mm tread, by screwing in a long bolt, the shaft can be withdrawn after the spring is compressed.
For compression of the spring I use a modified puller. 6 mm rods guide the cover plate until the attaching bolts can be fitted. However I believe at the factory they have been using just 55 to 60 mm long bolts to screw the cover plate home, drawings confirm that.

Regards  Karl 


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 29 August, 2020, 08:50:53 PM
The first time I fitted the spring the gearbox was dismantled so I could use the main input shaft to centre the clutch plate. Next time when the box was back together I expected a problem but in fact found that before the spring was fitted I could adjust the centering of the clutch plate (which is lightly nipped by the pressure plate and the three legged spring spider) simply by aligning it by eye with the pressure plate and pushing it by hand. This was evidently accurate enough to fit the gearbox and of course as soon as the clutch is disengaged and re-engaged the clutch plate aligns itself exactly. Unless your fingers are a lot stronger than mine the clutch lever on the bell housing cannot be moved by hand and needs an extension bar as I did when testing the likely pedal load.

I now need to make a new flange and downpipe for the exhaust as the original flange was very much eroded by corrosion and leaking exhaust. All a bit tricky as although the 60 degree angle bend at the lower end of the downpipe is easy, the corresponding bend where the downpipe connects to the cylinder head is rotated about 25 degrees towards the centre line of the car relative to the rest of the downpipe. I can't imagine just giving the old downpipe to an exhaust fabricator to copy will work out and because of the virus I can't get a welder to come and do the job in my garage, so decided to make a joint toward the bottom of the down pipe before it bends to horizontal so I can adjust it prior to taking it to my local welder. I found a very good supplier of exhaust parts, ordered two 60 degree bends on Thursday afternoon which arrived today Saturday so as soon as I get the engine back in place I can trim the pipe, make a new flange and get it to the welder next week. The only snag is that nobody seems to have the kit to make mandrel bends in 38mm (1.5 inch) with a curve radius of 3 times the pipe diameter as is the original so I had to settle for a slightly sharper 2 diameter curve. It would have been OK if I'd wanted a 3 or 4 inch pipe, but the Augusta is no hotrod.

I have bought a bolted sleeve joint to connect the down pipe to the rest of the exhaust where it goes through the cruciform frame of the car. With that the exhaust can be removed without having to cut is as I had to this time. There was a short section of thicker pipe connecting the pipes but it was too tight to remove. The new downpipe is in stainless which is a good plan re corrosion but looks wrong, unless grit blasted when it just looks like mild steel but doesn't rust. I would not use stainless for the rest of the exhaust or the silencer because its sound damping properties are less than mild steel so the noise can be annoying.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 30 August, 2020, 07:28:15 PM
I had to make a new flange (and face the head) to stand any chance of it being reliable. I also made a jig to weld the flange at the correct angle to the pipe.
You are most welcome to borrow it if you wish. I am in North Glos but DPD could deliver for, I guess, £20 ish.
Mike R


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 30 August, 2020, 08:37:05 PM
Thanks for your offer Mike. I hope to get the engine back in tomorrow and will make up my mind then and come back to you.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 31 August, 2020, 09:22:39 AM
The discussion about exhaust pipes and the connection to the cylinder head brings up the matter of exhaust gasket material.
On my car, the condition of the flange and face at the cylinder head is less than perfect. I have tried several materials until I came across a gasket material from the German company Frenzelit. Among the products is a material "Frenzelit novaMICA THERMEX". It can stand temperatures up to 1000į C and can adjust to small differences at the mating surfaces. But, without proper tools it's difficult to cut. I made 2 steel templates of the original gasket shape to clamp the material in between and was able to cut it to shape. Just!

www.frenzelit.com

regards  Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 31 August, 2020, 08:15:26 PM
Engine refitted today. Crane to lift it, trolley jack under the back of the gearbox and slide it in. Luckily the angle that the engine and gearbox adopt when suspended from the engine bearers is close to that needed to wriggle it back under the bulkhead.  With everything set up it took just 45 minutes to put it in working on my own but there are few points to note so I'll post more comments and pictures tomorrow.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 02 September, 2020, 06:45:43 AM

Mike - out of interest - where did you go for the exhaust components?

Am loving this series, even something as simple as numbering the photos is an inspiration.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 02 September, 2020, 08:03:16 AM
David thanks for that - I do think sharing experience is worth while. The exhaust part supplier was https://exhaustpartsuk.com/shop// A very helpful outfit.

Refitting engine and gearbox - a few tips.

You probably found this on removing the unit but worth while remembering that the lever on the gearbox which actuates the freewheel can be removed to give more clearance, particularly needed  if removing the gearbox while leaving the engine in place.

Before the big lift, one headlight should be unbolted from the mudguard to give clearance for the engine bearers to pass and the distributor and its drive removed from the cylinder head. The bolts which connect the engine bearers to the leaf spring mounts should be pushed down so that they are flush with the upper rubber blocks

To refit the engine and gearbox a hoist or crane is needed from which the unit is slung by the two engine bearers. It will balance at a good angle to slide into the car. If you have a crane like mine it can be rolled towards the front of the car and the gearbox pushed down under the bulkhead. With a fixed hoist the car has to be rolled forward. A trolley jack placed longitudinally under the car can be used to raise the back of the gearbox as needed, and will roll back with the gearbox. Before pushing the gearbox under the bulkhead, put a wodge of rag  on top of the box so that it can slide freely without scraping on the underside of the footboard/bulkhead - donít forget (as I did!) to take the rag out before the tail of the gearbox is jacked up into place!

It takes time to slide the unit in place as the sump and crankshaft pulley get very close to the front cross member and the studs for the exhaust manifold get close to the cover over the starter contacts on the bulkhead. Lower the engine in very small stages while pushing it over the cross member, each time watching the clearance at these two points until the engine bearers are over their mounting bolts and the sump is behind the cross member.  At this point the jack under the gearbox can be raised (while lowering the engine) until the tube through which the rear gear box mounting bolt goes lines up with the holes in the transmission tunnel and the engine bearers sit on the mounting springs. Before putting the rear bolt in, push the two engine bearer bolts up through the rubber bushes, easily done with the aid of a ratchet spanner, with extension inserted through the holes in the underskirt to screw the bolt up through the rubber. Next fit the rear cross bolt at the back of the gearbox. I found that a pair of washers had been welded inside the transmission tunnel to reinforce these holes and this made the gap fractionally too narrow - corrected by a prod with a screwdriver.  Lancia's precision really helps here as each part lines up and fits perfectly as long as nothing has been bodged.

Mike




 



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 03 September, 2020, 09:06:35 AM
Mike,
A very good description of the job! I like your last sentence.

Regards Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 03 September, 2020, 09:04:47 PM
Iíve been working on the exhaust which appears to consist of the original silencer with replacement pipes. I may be able to salvage the silencer which seems very solid but will replace the pipes and insert a bolted flange joint just after the point where the down pipe passes through the cross member to make it easier to detach the down pipe from the cylinder head. All this is for the Winter though as Iím getting rather impatient to try the car and find out whether all this fettling has improved it and particularly got rid of the vibrations.

I thought the flange connecting the down pipe to the manifold was a write-off due to corrosion but decided that I could re-face it on the milling machine and at least temporarily re-use it and fit the old exhaust system back to test the car.

Facing the flange is quite tricky as it is hard to attach it to the bed of the milling machine at the correct angle. My first attempt using a large milling cutter as in the picture failed to hit the proper angle although I faced it to line up with the non eroded parts of the face. It turns out that the alignment is extremely critical if the downpipe is to avoid rattling against the hole in the cross member so I had to take a little more off, about 1.5 mm at one side tapering to zero across the flange. I could work this out by bolting the flange loosely to the manifold then aligning the down pipe through the cross member and measuring the gap between flange and manifold around the rim of the flange. I also swapped to a fly cutter instead of the milling cutter which (using a round carbide tip) makes a cleaner finish and also make is far easier to align the job to the chosen angle.

The silencer does look original with its rounded ends, the tags to attach the springs from which it hangs and the insulated shield on the top which presumably discourages noise from penetrating the floor. There is also small fishtail at the end of the exhaust, also original although quite rusty.

Iíve reconnected the clutch pedal and as I expected from my testing, the pressure is not noticeably changed by the stronger spring. In fact a lot of the force from foot to pedal is taken up by the pedal return spring which is really strong - certainly a sloppy driver would never damage the clutch by resting his foot on the pedal.


Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 08 September, 2020, 09:08:28 PM
After an exhausting day yesterday lying under the car to re-attach the exhaust and the propshaft and a few final bits to the engine I filled the rad with water, the sump and gearbox with oil and waited for drips - none came overnight so today I had no excuse for not starting the engine. Oh boy - it started first push on the button, and ran! I let it warm up and gave the cylinder head nuts a final tweak to 60 lbs ft - surprising how tight that feels when using a short 250mm torque wrench. I was very nervous that I was over-doing it and spent some time checking the torque wrench against my ancient but accurate spring balance - it seems about right, if anything slightly over-reading. After refitting the radiator cowl the only excuse left for not trying the car was rain and lots of it. Tomorrow is another day.

Can anyone tell me more about the small steel lug at the top front of the radiator cowl (picture 103)?  It fits closely above the T shaped bracket which holds the top of the radiator shutter to the chrome grill with bolts through the square holes behind the radiator badge (Photo104).  I would like to know what fits into the large hole in the lug - possibly a rubber buffer as there are some black stains just where it would lie against the inside of the grill above the badge. As with many Augustas the thermostatic mechanism for the shutters is missing so Iíll have to decide whether to use an Appia pressure capsule or to make a manual cable actuated arrangement.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 09 September, 2020, 09:09:25 AM
The large hole indeed holds a rubber puffer which leans to the chrome grille. The T-shaped bracket normally supports the levers which operate the slats via the push rods as commanded by the thermostat. A word of caution: the Lancia badge is very brittle, the thin brass nuts should be tigthened very carefully as not to break the porcelain

Regards  Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 09 September, 2020, 01:36:46 PM
Sunshine and smiles all round - we had a test run and it is a different car without major vibrations, smooth and very willing at least up to 60mph. It also seems to pull much better than before. The only explanation I can think of is that the valve timing may have been a little out as I have really changed nothing else that could affect performance. It does have very good compression. There remains a slight vibration at about 3000 rpm which must be crankshaft related but it goes through that quickly and is otherwise very nice.

The gearbox is far less noisy in first and second and the front suspension works as it should with no clonks and with proper shockabsorbing. The clutch was always functionally good despite the dodgy spring and it still is, with no noticeable increase in pedal pressure.

I haven't quite got the exhaust rattle free so another session on the floor is indicated. :(   I fitted my copper sandwhich heat exchanger on the manifold with no gasket but with Heldite heat resistant pipe sealant - like the old Green Hermatite if you recall that. Time will tell whether it can stand the condition, or even do any good!

Thanks Karl for that confirmation of my guess. I'll make a buffer from a piece of polyurethane then I can refit the chromed surround. I found some extra screws whose job is to hold the lower part of the shutters to the surround. However these were not in use presumably because the previous owner prefered to be able to remove the surround leaving the shutters in place - which must also explain why the bolts behind the badge were missing.

Mike



Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 09 September, 2020, 07:40:27 PM
Well done.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: nevillesponge on 12 September, 2020, 10:09:11 PM
Just wanted to say what an excellent series of articles you've produced...  I'm just a few weeks into Belna ownership and have much to do. I'll be checking-in regularly as I'm not as technically competent as you guys and I'm hoping to learn lots! 
Regards to all, David


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 14 September, 2020, 09:08:44 PM
David thanks for your kind remark!

I thought I was getting to the end of sorting problems but yesterday after a 40 mile run and having just come down the Cote de Lofthouse (as trhe bicycle racers call it) the back brakes over heated. After a bit of crawling under the car I found that the bolt though the front eye of the N/S rear spring has disappeared. letting the spring and the axle slip back enough to tighten the handbrake and apply both brakes, make them hot but not to noticeably slow the car. The corresponding bolt on the off side was OK but the retaining tag washer had not been folded onto the hexagon so no doubt that was the reason for the escapee.

More crawling today and I took the spring off to sort it out. The thread on the chassis bracket into which the bolt fits was quite rusty but cleaned up with a tap and I can make a new bolt in EN24T which. although not perhaps as hard as the original bolt is extremely strong, being certified for the rotor shaft of a helicopter. However I will have to replace the Metalastic rubber bush at the front of the spring and attend to the bearings on the rear shackles which are still of the original roller bearing type but which can be replaced by a fabricated nylon version as Morris Parry decscribed in the Augusta Newsletter. I think I'll just replace the bolt for now and carry on motoring until the salt season when I will do all the bushes.

An annoying aspect of the job is that the bolts for the reas shackles have been fitted from the outside of the frame so that the top bolt cannot be removed without first taking off the mudguard. I'm sure they should be fitted the other way round and am reluctant to cut the top bolt to get it out as they are a super Lancia desgin and in perfect nick.. grrr!

Does anyone know a source for the Metalastic bush? It is 14mm bore, 30mm O/D and 45mm long on the outer, 48.5 on the inner steel parts?  Many suppliers list them for specific car applications but don't give dimensions.

Mike



Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: DavidLaver on 15 September, 2020, 06:35:48 AM

Not sure specifically, but the name that keeps popping up on the forum for such things is:

https://www.robush.com/


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 September, 2020, 02:19:08 PM
Thanks David - they had one which was close enough in size and I should have two here in a couple of days. £6.78 each.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 15 September, 2020, 07:19:02 PM
More crawling today to remove both springs. With care and with both wheels on blocks and an axle stand under the nose of the diff it is easy to undo the spring "U" bolts, the lower shackle pins at the back and the front spring bolts and take off the springs leaving the axle in place with no need to undo brake connections and shockabsorbers.

It turns out that under the head of the escapee bolt there should be a spacer which is clamped by the bolt and traps the inner sleeve of the metalastic bush, having serrations to increase the "bite". This too was missing along with the bolt so that is something else to make. The replacement bushes are 14.5 mm bore rather than 14, so new bolts will be needed for both sides of the car. I now have to remove the thick coating of grease applied by the previous owner, a great conservationist, to the springs and other bits under the car, much of it has re-applied itself to me and the garage floor.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Kari on 16 September, 2020, 08:23:33 AM
To me, it seems to be an unusual occurence to lose a bolt as there is load on it. Maybe I did anticipate something like this, and did wire locking those bolts aviation style.
On my car I had to replace those silent blocks as they have settled and have become brittle. I bougth silent blocks of the same diameter but slighly longer than required. I then shortened the outher bush and the rubber to the required lenght and went to hand file the serations. I did work but is obviously time consuming.

Regards  Karl


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 16 September, 2020, 08:24:54 PM
The mystery of the missing bolt. Having tried fitting the bolt and spacer from the offside in place of the missing items from the nearside spring bracket I find that the thread into which the bolt goes is worn, as is the hole into which the  serrated spacer/bush fits. Clearly the now absent bolt had been loose for some time. More fettling needed and a call to Tracy tools for a Helicoil kit to sort out the thread which will be fun as it must been done underneath the jacked up car. The hole for the spacer is oval by 0.5 mm so needs reaming. Then a new bolt and spacer to make.

 How many time per day do I need to crawl under the car to equate to the recommended 10,000 paces exercise? ;D

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 19 September, 2020, 07:55:15 PM
Took some time today to work out how to ream the chassis bracket for the bolt at the front of the spring to remove the ovality, while keeping the bolt in alignment with the tapped hole in the frame. I finally made an adjustable bracket with four very strong Neodymium magnets to hold it  to the underside of the floor. This worked well as the bracket can be adjusted with the reamer in place so that the nose of the reamer lines up exactly with the tapped hole. It is a pain working with these strong magnets as they grab everything in sight including any swarf or filings and will if you let them loose fly away to the nearest bit of steel, smash into it and shatter but they were ideal for this job. This is why the base of the bracket is aluminium.

The hole in the bracket should be 19mm but I had to take it out to 19.8mm to clear the ovality and will now need to make a new serrated bush to fit. I found I can cut the serrations on this bush and on the inner sleeve of the metalastic bush  with a slitting saw mounted in the milling machine with the milling head tilted to 45 degrees.

One question though - clearly the serrated bush is intended to be pressed into the recess in the bracket by the main bolt to nip the inner sleeve of the metalastic bush to make the rubber do all the flexing but how much clearance (determined by the length of the bush) should be allowed to get the right degree of nip? The bush has two flats which engage with the bracket to stop it from turning and a tag washer locks the head of the bolt.


Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 19 September, 2020, 08:45:10 PM
I had similar trouble on one side, the bolt was still there but had been moving so everything was worn.
Managed to recover it by a new bolt with slightly oversize thread, made a new washer and filed the serrations like Kari to fit the bush which I was able to dress up.
I concluded that no "nip" was required, that there should/could be clearance under the the flats but that the flats should be a really tight fit in the slot in which they sit.
Mike 


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 20 September, 2020, 08:49:41 PM
I had misunderstood  the operation of the serrations because the springs had been fitted to the wrong sides of the car which made me think that the serrations were intended to bite on the centre sleeve of the bush at one side and on the chassis bracket on the other end rather than engage their teeth. I realised what was going on and had a chat with Mike Raahauge. Having worked that out I decided that I could use a slitting saw to cut both sides of the Vee at the same time, setting the milling head  over to 45 degrees and with the work on a dividing head.  Of course this gave me 45 degree slopes and  90 degree included angle which will create more end force than the original 60 degree but I felt that the greater accuracy and the time saved made that acceptable. In any case anyone except Lancia would just clamp the bracket together and nip the bush!

It was very easy to do once set up and the result was very accurate and the serrations fit exactly together in my test pieces and to the original bush. Cutting the serrations takes about 15 minutes per component with no filing. The depth of the 45 degree teeth is 1mm.

The Helicoiling of the bolt holes in the frame bracket worked very well but did involve making guide bushes for the Helicoil drill and then for the tap. The one sound bolt now fits the thread well and feels very secure.

I now have to make new bushes for the bolts and new bolts.

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 23 September, 2020, 07:34:42 PM
Very good, a much better fit than I achieved.
I have other news which should not really be on a thread titled "Augusta progress".
I just made a new fabric coupling out of some conveyor belting (10mm thick and I have lots if anyone wants some) and went out to test it.
Vibration free, excellent but whilst out I lost some oil pressure and the engine was rough.
Dismantled to find this. (and another less serious issue)


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: simonandjuliet on 23 September, 2020, 07:55:42 PM
Ouch .....


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 23 September, 2020, 09:00:32 PM
Oh B*gg*r!

Sorry to hear that Mike. It's that oilway so close to the journal. I can see a crack above and below the oilway going vertically in the picture.

Maybe a two main bearing crank is the answer  ;) - the Austin 7 racers all prefer two bearings to three. The Twin Cam Salmson can be either two or three bearings with, on the three bearing version a split disc for the centre main just like the Augusta. Three bearing Salmson cranks have been known to break but not the two bearing.

How much undersize are the crank journals? I do think the Augusta crank webs are very slim and wonder if there could be benefit (if making a new crank) in shortening the centre main and the big end bearings to thicken the webs?

Mike


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 24 September, 2020, 07:48:37 AM
Commiserations, Mike. When I had a new crank made, Phoenix made the centre main the same size as the rear one, rather than the same as the front, which is a bit smaller. So far, it has proved OK and nice and smooth, apart from having little oil pressure, which might well be to do with the shell bearings used for the centre main.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: JohnMillham on 24 September, 2020, 02:10:19 PM
It might pay to get together with Peter Renou, who recently had a similar problem, to see about getting some new crankshafts made.


Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Raahauge on 24 September, 2020, 07:27:24 PM
Thanks for the commiserations.
The centre main is 48.25 and the big end is 41.2. The crack looks to me to have propagated from the oil drilling to the centre main where there is only 2mm of material. I would be interested to know what the standard journal sizes are.
I will mail Peter about a possible collective effort, if anyone else is interested please come forward.
I do have a another crank in a wreck of an engine I bought last year but even if it looks good when I get it out it may have the same flaws.




Title: Re: Augusta progress
Post by: Mikenoangelo on 24 September, 2020, 08:39:28 PM
According to the English version of the instruction book the big end would have been 42mm, the front and centre main 50mm and the rear main 60mm. The actual diameters are not shown but they do show undersize measurements to fit no 1 and no 2 undersize bearings. The no 2 undersize diameters are, for the big end 41.582 - 41.600mm, for the front and centre mains 49.182 - 49.200mm and the rear main 59.180 - 59.200.

The big end which I measured on my engine was 41.66, or about 13.4 thou undersize in pre Napoleonic measurement. I'm no expert but suspect that the undersizes to suit replacment bearings are pretty cautious and would think that the  bigend could tolerate a 20thou regind but an expert such as Ian Burlingham of JBL near York should be consulted.

John's oversize centre main is intended to give more clearance for the oilway as well as providing support a little further out radially along the crank web. I still feel the centre webs look too thin but the saying that "if it looks right it is right" is considered twaddle by real engineers. ;D

Mike