Lancia Motor Club

I've just had the radiator reconditioned on my Fulvia S2 Sport and when I came to take it out most of the points which should have been connected electrically (temp sensor and fan) weren't. It means that now I'm putting it back together I don't have any reference for it and am struggling to match wires to the wiring diagram I have. Is anyone able to help with photos of the connections and colours that should be used for each - there seem to be more wires loose in the area than there are connections so I'll probably have some other things to look at once I can figure it all!

I fear you will have to work it out from first principles.    Essentially you need a power supply from the battery (take it off the starter motor terminal) via the temperature sensor to the fan and another connection from the fan to earth.    You could even run the wire from the thermostatic switch to a relay and use that to energise the fan which would take the strain off the thermostatic switch.    New wiring is never a bad idea!

Thanks David, I'm happy to create new wiring but on the basis the original wires must be there for neatness I would rather use them if possible, just not sure which they are (and what all the others are). May have to sit and try to figure it all out! A clearer wiring diagram than the one I have would be great if anyone can help, or even a photo of the wires in situ might help.

I thought the fan was controlled by a relay which was activated by the rad temp switch earthing. Lots of earths around that area. Fan has a fused 12v supply from the starter motor area. Horn wiring also relay operated in that area. Maybe you are missing the relays?

Thanks.I'll have a proper look but it will likely be the weekend before I get chance. I can see what is probably the fused supply as there is a red wire near the starter motor with a fuse type connection on it, I'll have to find a fuse! Do you know where the relays should be as I've not noticed any. It's difficult when I don't have anything to reference for how it should be - wiring diagrams aren't particularly helpful for that of course. I think the horn did work when I tested it a while ago but no absolutely sure.

Two tin can relays back to back on a mounting inside the front wing mounted on the inner wing bit.

Hi Andy, If you log on to "Lancisti.net" forum, in the "downloads" under the Fulvia files there is a coloured wiring diagram. Assuming stock wiring it looks very helpful.

Good Luck.

With a quick look last night I think the relays are there.

Just printed the colour wiring diagram, that should make life a lot easier! Thanks for letting me know about it although seeing a clear version of the wiring has prompted me to wonder about the coolant temperature gauge transmitter - is that somewhere on the engine with the one on the radiator with two connections being the one for the radiator fan?

Hi Andy,
according to that diagram, Fan motor is No.6: Red 15amp fused wire from starter motor as Tim said. On the other side of the switch is a Blue wire from the Relay No. 8. Pin 3. Relay Pin 1 ( Black wire)goes to one side of the Radiator switch to provide an earth to the relay when the switch closes. Other side of switch to earth. Relay Pin 2  is a Red from the HORN relay Pin 2 (2x reds on this connector). This emanates from the cigar lighter.

Temperature gauge transmitter No. 19 (shown on the left below the headlamps) has a Grey/Black wire, Situated on the cylinder head.

I hope that helps.

Thanks, think that will be helpful. I was trying to figure what wires would fit to where on my car tonight based on the drawing but the battery ran out on my lamp - currently waiting for the electrician to come and install wiring so struggling to get much done. Working tomorrow and out in the evening so hopefully can figure it on Sunday.

Seeing what is connected to where on the relay looks difficult though with the mounting location hidden inside the wing cavity!

Probably easier to unmount the relays from the wing to wire them correctly. As a trick these relays can be opened up easily to check contacts and coil / contact pin outs.

Finally managed to get a bit of time to look at the wiring again today but am really struggling to figure what goes where. I've located the wires for the fan and can see what I think is the earth wire for the sensor. I can't figure which wire it is for the live to the sensor though so took the relays off the wing panel to have a closer look but still can't figure it - there is one which seems to have the right wires but the black goes to the alternator rather than having any sort of connection which might be suitable for the radiator fan sensor. Can anyone tell me what the other relays are that are on the mount on the inner wing so I can try and figure it later - don't know if this picture helps but it is what was mounted together on the bracket attached to the wing (the larger black box has a green and a red wire attached to it if that helps).

(https://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd81/andyps1275/Fulvia%20Zagato/IMG_20191013_175158.jpg)

one is horn relay, the other is fan relay. The black box is a ducillier alternator regulator (you should be able to trace all these wires with an ohm meter (disconnect one end....). The fan has its own 12v fused supply from the startermotor main 12v lead. The relay controls the earth to the fan.... the thermo switch (sensor in your note??) controls the earth to the fan relay coil. Hope that helps.

That's great, many thanks for your help - I've sussed the fan (I hope) and can check the relay for the horn which should help me determine which is the one for the the fan.

Just been out for a quick look and that is really helpful. I can see which relay/solenoid is which and the wires do seem right there. What is odd is that the black wire for the thermo sensor is connected to the relay and then gets combined with the other wires inside the wrapping but I can't see it coming out anywhere. Will have to do some careful unwrapping at the weekend to trace where it goes. I can see one that I'm pretty sure is the earth from the sensor so that's easy!

This doesn't get any easier! I've had a good look at the wires now and the black wire from the solenoid goes to the alternator rather than having any connection for the thermo sensor. The wiring diagram suggests a black wire from the voltage regulator (I'm assuming this is the black box on the same block as the fan relay and horn relay) but there are only the green and black wires, although there is a black one connected to earth on the connections.

Sorry to ask for more information but is there a diagram or list which shows what is where on the car in terms of electrical components - schematic wiring diagrams are great but equivalent to navigating above ground using the tube map!

Andy I disagree.... If the car is still on its original wiring loom (which I suspect it is) then it is just a case of patience to identify the components on the scematic which relate to the car components and the tediousness of tracing the colours end to end with an ohm meter.  I have attached a clear wiring diagram and code. Simples. Given you seem to have anomolies it is best to tick off a lot more than you had previously thought especially the alternator to regulator as will damage both if incorrect.

Many thanks for your help, it is really appreciated. I do know what you mean about the wiring and it is a case of following things through. Just that when looking at the diagram I have three things mounted on one bracket which are numbers 9, 13 and 34 - they are physically located together but the diagram implies they are a long way apart. When trying to identify components and know where to look for where the end of a wire is likely to be on the car that makes it a lot harder!! I'll get there just struggling with lack of experience of Fulvia layout.

Perhaps an idea to draw a simplified wiring diagram of only the components being worked upon?

Hi Andy, assuming you have a multimeter that measures voltage, ohms etc it should be possible to trace the cables logically.
Simply put, you have a 12 volt feed (via an inline fuse), RED wire, from the starter motor to the Fan Motor. Exiting the Fan motor you still have 12 volts, BLUE wire to terminal 3 on the relay.
Terminal 2 of the relay has a switched 12 volts, RED wire when the ignition is turned on. ( This comes from the Horn relay Terminal 2)
Terminal 4 of the relay, BLUE wire, goes to earth.( Chassis ground) . So when the ignition is turned on, the relay solenoid closes and Terminal 1 of the relay Black wire now has 12 volts which is connected to one side of the thermostatic switch. Once the water is up to the preset temperature, the switch contacts close and the 12 volts goes to earth via the other BLACK switch wire, and turns on the Fan.
You can determine which relay terminals are 2&4 with your Ohmeter because they should have continuity all the time.
Once you have determined 12 volts on the Red wire to the fan motor, earth the other wire ( BLUE) to ground to check fan works, before continuing.
As Tim said it`s a matter of patience and logic. Remember when checking for continuity on wires, ALL wires must be disconnected from their relative components, otherwise you will get false readings.

Thanks for the additional help guys! I'm going away for the next week so will pick this up again when I get back, hopefully will be able to figure it then.

Just to confirm the rad fan has a 12v fused feed and the relay#9 in the inner wing switches the earth (blue) when the thermo switch (earthed black on one side) earths the relay as it gets to c85C (via a black wire to terminal 1 on the relay#9). The Fan should then come on. In the inner wing is also (or should be) the alternator regulator #13 with red green and black wires. Alongside the ran relay is the horn relay #34 with brown (from fuse box horn supply) black (relay earth) red (horn switch to relay coil) and green (to horns) wires.

It is a bit of a nightmare to get the relay wiring right.... A little story when I acquired my 1600 Sport the previous owner (who was quite competent) had been troubled by his battery going flat regularly. He used the car extensively driving in all weathers and blamed the alternator for not being able to cope with heater wipers lights all on. So he fitted a bigger alternator.... then another battery. It was still a problem when I had the car and I discovered that one of the relays had been wired with the switched supply to the relay coil and the coil activation wire going directly to the device! A simple fix and I then went back to the standard bosch alternator that came with the car....

Tim, thanks for spotting in my haste I incorrectly named  terminal 1 as the relay high current side earth instead of terminal 4.
Apologies Andy, for any confusion caused.

Thanks again, just had a quick look again based on this as apart from the issue I have with the thermo switch wiring I had noticed my voltage regulator didn't match the wiring diagram and your post confirmed it - I only have the red and green wires connected on mine. The only black wire is one that was connected to the mount on it as if an earth, although it does seem it does seem it may connect to the alternator (I've not tested the wire) - where should the black wire connect as I can't see a third terminal. Photo shows what I have, and I know I need to clean the spade connections ;D

(https://spa-pa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/IMG_20191024_003125-e1571874750852.jpg)

Crikey, with the condition of those connectors I'm surprised anything works  :o
Brian
8227  8)

I don't know if any of them do work, I've never had the car running although it did start when I looked at it before purchase - 30 years lack of use but dry stored so body is good. Some of the lights and things do work though. I'll clean up all the connections but want to be sure the right wires are on the right connections though.

I understand, but why do you think they might not be ???
Brian
8227  8)

As Brian says they look like they have been there for a helava long time......

I find a rotary wire brush in a "Dremel" type tool ideal for cleaning up such spade connectors though I have found the Ozito one from B&Q both more affordable and more durable.

I find spade terminals of that vintage and condition rather fragile. Hence why you see so many poorly crimped replacement terminals on cars. BTW crimping onto oxidized copper wire will give you about the same current carrying capacity as those rusty terminals, leading to more unreliability. Clean the Spades but leave the connectors alone if possible.

Mainly because I don't seem to have a wire available to connect to the radiator thermo switch - there is one where it connects to the relay but I can't find the other end! It *may* be connected to the alternator but I've not had chance to check yet.

Thanks for that, I've not got a Dremel so will go with your recommendation.

Clean the Spades but leave the connectors alone if possible.
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I'm aiming to leave as much untouched as possible!

I had chance to have another look at this last night, from what I can tell the black wire which is currently connected at one end on the alternator should go to the thermo switch. I'll check more thoroughly later in the week but the only black wire I have connected to the relay is definitely currently connected to the alternator so not correct on that basis.

I'm still not sure about the black wire for the voltage regulator which does connect to the alternator - I know this is separate from the cooling wires but it is in the same physical location. Does anyone have a photo of where the three wires should connect on the regulator, I can only see two connections on mine with the black wire effectively connected to earth via the mounting bracket, then going to the alternator I think (not fully checked yet).

Also, many thanks to lancialulu for your time at the Classic Motor Show on Friday, it was good to meet you.

Good to meet you too!!!

I can confirm you need one of the black wires to go from the alternator to the regulator. also in the group from the alternator to regulator are a green and red wire. The alternator also has a fat red cable to the starter motor and a red/black that goes to the gen warning light back to the dash.

I think I'll take the remaining part of the airbox off the carburettors so I can see the connections which are on the alternator more clearly. What I'm puzzling over with the voltage regulator is that it only has two connections and they have the red and green wires attached to them. There is then a black wire which is on a ring connector using the bracket mounting bolt for the regulator and relays to the inner wing - that wire seems to also go to the alternator but until I've got the airbox off I'm not 100% sure.

Good news is I connected the side light wire I mentioned so hoping that now works - no battery on the car last night to check it.

The alternator black wire must go to earth at or near the regulator so if you can determine the black wire with the ring termination goes to the alternator (physical check....) thats fine. Mind you do you know if the alternator works (or the regulator too)??

That sounds reassuring, looking on the wiring diagram I wondered if there was supposed to be a third terminal on the regulator. I've followed that wire to the alternator so hopefully all is ok with that one. When the engine was running when I looked at the car before purchase the ignition light worked as expected, when I get it running again I'll be able to check the alternator properly.

Just thought I would update this post as I've finally fitted the radiator and connected the wires to the fan and switch this evening. I've not had chance to test anything yet other than sorting the wires and checking which was which before fitting everything so hopefully it will work when I get everything fully assembled and start the engine. I've had the starter motor and alternator rebuilt whilst they were easier to get at - I'll hopefully get the alternator fitted tomorrow evening.