Lancia Motor Club

Model Technical and Interest => Aprilia, Ardennes and Ardea => Topic started by: welleyes on 18 July, 2018, 01:39:03 PM

Title: Radiator removal
Post by: welleyes on 18 July, 2018, 01:39:03 PM
We have a small leak in the bottom of the rad., (Aprilia Series One.) It is in to awkward a position to repair in situ, and may need more expert attention than I can manage. I can see (or feel) that there are two bolts holding the radiator on to the engine bearer extensions but the offside one seems very difficult to access. The fuel pump (no longer in use as we use an SU pump) is in the way. Can anyone offer any advice on radiator removal? Are there any cunning wheezes that we need to know?

Stuart Tallack

Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: simonandjuliet on 18 July, 2018, 04:39:47 PM
It should be straight-forward, the mounting bolts should have slots in them as well (like large flat-head screws) and they should also be located directly above 2 holes in the valance, so normally you undo them from under the car

However , you do need to undo the water pump first and leave it in situ as you lift out the rad

Let me know if you need photos - although mine is S2

Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: welleyes on 19 July, 2018, 04:32:03 PM
Thanks for your help.
Is it really necessary to remove the pump? I can see that the handle of the drain tap needs to be removed, but the rear bolts of the pump are very inaccessible and it appears that there would be just room to get the radiator out with the water pump attached. What do you think?


Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: simonandjuliet on 19 July, 2018, 05:28:56 PM
Hi, normally the tap is a male thread into the water pump casting and even with the handle removed there isn't enough room to turn it - on mine anyway

The 4 x 14 mm bolts aren't too difficult, just a bit of a fiddle to undo from the front - try a flat ratchet ring spanner ?

Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: davidwheeler on 19 July, 2018, 08:06:03 PM
Curious - I have never had to remove the water pump - but mine does not have a tap on it so that may be the reason why.

Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: welleyes on 21 July, 2018, 02:34:07 PM
Thanks, chaps!

Another question comes to mind... just out of intellectual curiosity, you understand. Are the Series One and Series Two water pumps and radiators completely different or are they interchangeable?

We will know in a couple of days if the radiator removal and repair is successful: Morgan tricycle problems have become more urgent than the Lancia.


Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: Martin9 on 21 July, 2018, 04:34:47 PM
My Aprilia is 38-3999 [December 1937] and the rad came out complete with the water pump and its long T-Bar. As I remember, the nearside engine mount needed loosening at the outer end. With two people, one lifting the rad/dynamo/fan assembly and the other fiddling around with the engine mount to let the T-Bar past, it will come out quite easily. Getting the short piece of hose [from the return outlet at the bottom offside of the rad] off the aluminium casting attached to the block can be a bit of a challenge. With my long neglected car the casting just broke off as we manoeuvred the rad - the casting was corroded right through.
Good luck - at least you'll have few rad/water pump problems with your Morgan.

Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: welleyes on 23 July, 2018, 12:14:00 PM
Thanks for all the help so far. We will get back to the Lancia in a couple of days. We are still not clear on one point: someone has told us that the Series 1 and Series 2 water pumps are different in that the drain tap is on the pump on the S1 and on the radiator on the S2. Is that correct? It obviously makes a difference if we are looking for a pump.

Thanks again.


Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: welleyes on 24 July, 2018, 05:22:37 PM
This little quote...
          "The keen Aprilia-detail-spotters will have noticed that I have used a second series water pump body , only because I don't have any new 1st series ones , I have just blanked off the unused waterways with appropriate "Lancia" stamped plugs !"
                     ... confuses me even more. There are new (?) pumps advertised in Italy and the vendor writes that the Series 1 and Series 2 pumps are the same. Someone must know.


Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: ben on 21 August, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
Hi fellow Aprilia owners
I have only just discovered this post so maybe you have it all sorted by now.

I believe S1 and S2 pumps are interchangeable but not identical as some (early ones) don't have a threaded hole in the front of the casting in line with the pump axis which can be plugged with a blanking plug or used as a return connection if you have a (rare) heater installed.
Also some pumps have a grease nipple which seems to be of uncertain merit and purpose.It channelled grease to the bearing which is not required if a sealed bearing is used(readily available) and also fed grease to the waxed string seal.Again nowadays it is customary to replace these seals with modern lip seals which are also available to fit straight in.
It should certainly be possible to remove the rad complete with pump and drain tap tee piece but it is heavy as the dynamo has to come with it and it needs careful manoeuvering to steer the tee piece around the mounting bracket. As Simon says the mounting bolts are accessed with a socket spanner, up through the holes provided, from below. The fuel pump does not need to be disturbed. And the tee piece/drain cannot be unscrewed with the rad/water pump in situ.
On early cars there is no steady tie bar from the top of the rad back to the cam cover to worry about and the top hose keeps the rad upright.I think on the later cars with the thermostat in the top hose line this was not so firm and hence the tie bar was incorporated.
I normally disconnect the bottom water connection by undoing the single bolt fixing for the cast alloy connector piece rather than undoing the hose clip(s).Originally this would be a 14mm af bolt which is just accessible with a thin socket but to make life easier I have replaced this with a socket headed bolt.
If this cast alloy piece has corroded away I suggest replacing it with one made from steel---cut out the base from a piece of 1/4inch plate and weld a short tube to it.
It is just possible to remove the water pump without taking out the rad but the offside rad mounting bolt has to come out so that the rad can be tilted up. I used a long piece of timber under the rad to lever it up, pivoted on the crankshaft pulley,in order to manoeuvre the pump out.It is quite a bit easier if you don't have a drain tap---they tend to leak and get ditched! The four bolts that hold the pump on to the bottom of the rad are again just about accessible with a thin 14mm socket but life is easier if they are replaced with ones with 13mm heads or socket heads. Being ,from memory,8mm fine threads they are hard to source and as I think I have mentioned before I have got around this by very carefully filing them down from 14 to 13 mm.

Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: welleyes on 21 August, 2018, 07:59:28 PM
Thank you for the helpful reply.
We have most of it sorted now, but not back on the road yet. The rad with the pump attached fiddled off without too much trouble. The leak is being repaired but a proper rad rebuild will be needed before long. We wil replace the bottom hose connection on the block with one machined out of a piece of aluminium. Ken supplied us with new mounting rubbers and we have pressed new steel 'thimbles' to replace the missing ones. We have not got as far as making a decision on the mounting bolts but do not anticipate a problem. Unfortunately the workshop is rather full making new brake parts for another car. We did not plan to do two things at once: the cars conspired to arrange that.


Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: davidwheeler on 23 August, 2018, 08:51:05 AM
I had my radiator rebuilt by Vintage Radiator Company - beautiful job but it cost about a grand.  (the VIIth Lambda cost 3 grand!).

Title: Re: Radiator removal
Post by: welleyes on 02 September, 2018, 03:47:46 PM
We are still wittering on about radiator mountings: sorry!

Without wishing to offend any previous owner of the car, it has been owned at some time by a bodger. The rad was held on by a 12mm screw on one side and a 7/16 BSF on the other. Of course, that could also be metric except that I have never heard of a 11mm x 140 pitch thread. These bolts (actually setscrews) suggest that both sides have been retapped unless the 12mm is correct. Neither of the screws will go in more than three and a half turns. There were a couple of tired rubber bushes between bearers and rad but with no metal cup.

The series 2 is (correct me if I am wrong) a long bolt. It has a shoulder at the top which stops it screwing in too far. Below that shoulder is a plain shank that passes up through the bearer, the metal cup and the rubber bush before entering the thread in the radiator. Presumably the length of the shank is such that it compresses the rubber. That compression appears to be achieved by compressing a coil spring between the underside of the bearer and the head of the radiator screw. All this description is derived from looking at photographs. The way that the bearers are forged seems to provide a location for the rubber on top and the coil spring below.

Is that correct for the Series 2? What should the Series 1 have? Presumably not the long bolt as that is not shown in the S1 parts book, but did it have a shoulder to stop it screwing in too far or did it rely on being the correct length? (Our bearers may be S2 if they are interchangeable.)   If it relied on correct length for the bolt, then I reckon it would be 43-44mm. We are trying to make the best of a bodge, but it would be useful to know what is correct; does anybody have photos/drawings/sketches/ knowledge/opinion?

A radiator rebuild will obviously be necessary before long, but recoring it will not restore the bottom fixings to their original form. We want to improve the Mark One bodge to a Mark Two which has at least some pretence to being engineered.