Lancia Motor Club

Is  it possible to fit a later series gearbox to a Series 1 1.3 engine?

Cheers

Yes but....

Firstly is the S1 engine in an S1 car? if yes then you will either need to put a transmission tunnel in or cut a large hole in the existing "hump" and allow the remote to stick through into the cabin. You will aslo need to change the rear cross member of the subframe.

Then comes the connection with the engine. I'm pretty sure you will need to change the bellhousing on the 'box as it is different on the S1 to the S2's. The flywheel and clutch are different (bath type flywheel and spring clutch on S1, flat flywheel and diaphragm clutch on S2), so are likely to need changing.

The S2 gearbox has a 20 spline mainshaft so you will need a 20 spline clutch (S1 is 10 spline) and also I think the nose of the shaft is a different diameter so you may need to change the nose bearing in the flywheel.

The driveshaft flanges have different fastening arrangments, so you may need drive shafts with S2 inner joints and S1 outer joints.

Your speedo will over read because the speedo gearing is different to take into account the different size tyres.

I've never done it so these are just thoughts of the top of my head, but all points to check. I'm sure it can be done but others can add or confirm it can be done.

Hardly sounds worth the effort, and for what reason anyway?
The 4 speed series 1 gearbox is probably the nicer of the gearboxes anyway, there is no advantage as far as top gear is concerned in fitting a dogleg 5 speed, as in both top gear is direct.
You also loose the clear floor of the 4 speed for the (granted slight) obstruction of a floor console.

Brian
8227 8)

Yes, it is possible but as Neil demonstrates and Brian says, its hardly worth the bother. I'm with Brian too in thinking that the four speed box is nicer to use than the five speed and the steering column change on the S1 berlina is a delight.

Only time you might consider the swop is if, like me, you have a badly damaged S1 1600 HF Fanalone piggy back 5 speed box and you're baulking at the high cost of a rebuild. However, having weighed up the pros and cons we decided on the rebuild.

Robin.

Many thanks for the replies - here's the reason for my posting. Not knowing a great deal about these cars I had assumed my recently purchased 1969 Rallye 1.3S had a series 1 engine (818.302). But I have always been puzzled by the console arrangement around the gearstick installed by the previous owner.

Last week I spent some time on the interior and removed this console, only to discover  the gearbox remote protruding through the 'hump' - exactly as Neil describes!  So I obviously have a replacement (and probably later series) gearbox. And what a mess around the hump!!

So, have a got a series 1 engine with a series 2 gearbox - or have I got a series 2 engine and gearbox. Series2 engines also had the 818.302 number (as I understand). How can I tell?   I'm now worried about the other comments about the drive shafts and the rear cross member.

Beginning to regret buying a Fulvia!!

Cheers

Sorry to hear that.

Has the engine got a dynamo or an alternator? If the latter it's almost certainly a series 2. The other way to tell is what make is the starter motor - S1 were all Bosch, S2 a mixture of Bosch or Ducellier.

Do you have the engine number?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone has put a complete S2 subframe in - have the top suspension A arm bushes got grease nipples in (S1 arrangement) or are they metalastic (S2 arrangement)?

It shouldn't make any difference to the way it drives, but no doubt you're feeling a bit peeved about it.

How does the remote extension look in a Series 2? Has the bodyshell been modified - or perhaps a bolt on tunnel? Or just an interior console?

Will check the engine details tonight.

I've been informed that the gearbox might be from a FLAVIA  - as this was an option used when racing. It would certainly solve the puzzle as to why this box is only 4 speed, and solve the S1/S2 mismatch. I assume there is a number stamped somewhere - anyone help?

While many folk like cars to be absolutely as they left the factory and despise any "bodges" or modifications along the way to me a car with a "complex" history can be all the more fun and interesting to be associated with.  It becomes a bit of a detective game, and usually when you throw up your hands and shout in exasperation "what WERE they thinking!!!" its more often than not something clever and interesting.

Here's hoping anyway!!

David

There is a ID plate on the passenger side of the 'box next to the dipstick - you'll have to get under the car to see it though. That will have a part number on it that you can reference.

Here's a picture from Lucas Wilcox's 'site of his car which has a well made conversion for a 5 speed box:

http://homepage.mac.com/ekranoplan/LUKAFOTO3/page16/files/page16-1007-full.html

My car started off as an early S1, but has been fitted with an S2 1600HF engine and a 5-speeed box, the innards of which come from a Flavia 2000HF. The engine and gearbox sit in a S2 sub-frame and the floor/ hump has been cut and modified as Neil describes. In my case the big S2 hump has been covered with fitted carpet and it looks OK – see photo below.

But, it may not have been necessary to fit a big hump like this! It seems that it is possible to fit the box so that the remote mechanism projects back through the hole in the original small hump. It looks like Lucas Wilcox’s is like this, and in the two examples in the photos below, one of which is Louise Kennedy’s race car.

Colin     

Spooky!!  Both my car, and (I think) the Fulvia Zagato belonging to Louise, used to belong to, and were raced by,  Paul Howarth.  Same modifiications? Does she still have the car, and can she be contacd??

Cheers

Well bugger me, but that picture from Lucas Wilcox's site is exactly what mine looks like!!  (Gearbox of course, not the Fanalone body). Is this car still around??

Gearbox number 815300. Definately Flavia. (according to the book!)

Engine numbers (various) 818.302 227035 (head). 818 302 2281325. (lower engine block).  818.303.94795 (flywheel casing).  As clear as mud.

I helped build Paul's Zagato. The mod to the gearbox was to ease the gear ever position using the 5 speed tail casting mated to the 4 speed box. We obviously had to cut the tunnel in the same way. I we remember the Coupe which Paul used as his back up car for his HSCC championship win with the Zagato. As for the Zagato, the gearbox was not the only mod we did...

Yes, he is a member of the LMC (angelorange on here) and he campaigns it regularly on the circuits.

Louise still has that Zagato and I could pass your details onto her if you send me a private message.  She's in Guildford and I'd be surprised if she and Jason wouldn't make time to show you.  Its still in active use.

David

Paul Howarth used to write regularly in Viva Lancia.  I expect those articles would be at least interesting and maybe very helpful.  Anyone got a decent index to identify what issues?

David

Jai's article on race prep - it might be no bad thing if the engine is closer to standard then when it was in championship winning spec. 

http://www.lancia.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3033.0

...and some photos from Gil.

David

Ouch! tin opener or cold chisel :o

Brian
8227 8)